we earn less tha the 26k benefits cap and ds knows this - now he's asking us are we living in poverty, eg "I didnt know we were so poor mum"....

[ssd]

what do I tell him, yes we are poor?

I don't usually feel poor, I get minimum wage, dh gets 7£ an hour, we both work and pay all our bills

we dont have holidays and nights out, but there are loads of people living like that now

I've explained to ds about the welfare reforms and to someone of 12 it sounds simple, eg. why dont they work or do the sort of jobs you do mum (cleaner, babysitter, dishwasher, all crap minimum wage jobs), or why do they stay somewhere where their rent is so high, we couldnt aford to live there so why does someone who doesnt work live there?

....and so on

sigh...I dont know what to tell him, I just always say stick in at school so you might be able to get a batter job than me and your dad and you might have more choice than us

We are the same we both work have two dc but dont earn 26k either. we just manage our money the best we can. Makes you wonder why we work though doesnt it.

Say you're not poor, you work hard for your money and you have to spend it carefully. He's right about the rest, of course.

How does he know how much you earn?

My kids asked me if we are poor last night too! I told them that poor people can't afford to eat three meals a day, or heat thier home or buy new shoes/clothes/things they need and that although we're not loaded we can afford all of those things so we are not rich but not poor either. We get way below the national average but thankfully it's topped up with tax credits so we are ok, no holidays and we have to budget carefully for new school shoes/clothes etc, but the kids don't go without.

Out of the mouths of babes...

I don't know how many DC you have but this cap is to be set at the average income. So by definition half of households are below it. The top amount would only be for people with lots of kids etc.

Sounds like a sensible lad and sensible parents. That's something money can't buy.

:(

Perhaps some mn'ers in receipt of "a large amount of benefits" will be happy to explain to you why this is fair.

well we don't get that much, and it is going to get worse due to the targeting of disabled people. weirdly no one cares about that

Christ on a BIKE not another one!

Tell him that sometimes people are made redundant and don't want to be forced to move very away from their childrens schools, family support, and a chance of a job.

Tell him also that until housing, heating, and food cost a pittance, benefit levels will have to be at a sufficient level to allow people to live.

If it was possible to live on 2k a year with several kids, benefits would be 2k a year.

Is it VERY SIMPLE mathematics. The most simple there is.

And before anyone rolls out the old 'don't have kids if you can't afford them' chestnut, have a think about how many people are being made redundant ALL THE TIME and maybe consider that they never thought they might be in that position of having to claim and had the children BEFORE those circumstances came about.

An average family on benefits gets nowhere near the capped amount though... It's households with more children and things like private renting that pushes it up.

As far as explaining it to a child, that 26k is being split by more people, that's why they're poorer - for what it's worth I worked out yesterday that a single parent on benefits with 5 children in a council house in my LA area is recieving well under the 26k mark.

My kids ask if we are rich or poor, and I tell them we have exactly the right amount of money. Not poor, so we have a house, car, food etc. But not rich, so we can't buy everything we want, we have to save up and choose what to buy with our money.

They are quite happy with this, although they are younger than your son.

I'm not in receipt of a large amount of benefits, but I can see without much effort that a family consisting of two grandparents (one not well enough to work) and their daughter who's now living with them after escaping domestic violence, and her three DC (one with moderate disabilities) will soon tot up to a household receiving rather more than a nice little nuclear family with no disabilities.

(ESA, Industrial Injury Compensation and Carer's Allowance will all be included in the £26K cap; only if someone is severely disabled and receiving DLA will it be exempt.)

It's only complex households like this that will get near the amount: the abusive husband from whom the daughter is fleeing will be living the single life as a household of one, may have no intention of ever working, and won't be touched by the cap.

Of course, there are those who think that "fair" means every household gets the same number regardless of need. Perhaps they also think we should all have the same amount of chemotherapy in our lives as well. You know, to be fair.

This is an amazing piece of propaganda by the government. Here you all are, imagining that £26K is somehow the amount "benefit claimants" receive. Yet the govt itself admits the number receiving this is very small - and as a per household number it will penalise those trying to look after their own by living with extended family.

Tot up how much you get in child benefit and tax credits after you've taken the tax off your earnings...

you might find it's a lot closer to 26k than you'd think.

To answer your question, it is about how many people the money is being shared between, and also about how much money is left after essential bills. If you get 26k, but 90% of that goes on your rent and you can't move (perhaps there's a contact order with an ex that states where your DC can go to school, not uncommon) then you'll be living on a tiny amount of money.

I think you can be very proud of your DS.

As a child we were a long way from flush, my dad was made redundant (an event I remember with sadness 30 years later) and my mum and dad had to do anything to pull in the cash.

As a kid watching I think it fired in me a deep seated work ethic. I have grafted hard because I'm not a natural at anything, but I'm always really good at what I do.

Your message to DS is the best a mum can give. Work hard, do your best, don't give up. If more DC's got that instilled in them this country wouldn't have a 26k cap.

Yet the govt itself admits the number receiving this is very small

Apparently estimates say it's 67,000 families. Source

If my pre-coffee morning brain hasn't failed me yet then that's more than £1.7billion PER YEAR That doesn't sound right....i'm going to have a coffee then look again.

But still....67,000 families!?!?! That's a hell of a figure.

Here is the breakdown from the huffpost article:

"£392.31 for rent (the allowable rent for Tolworth, typical of a cheaper property)
£39.06 for council tax (Kingston Council, Band E)
£28.18 for gas and electricity (DECC English average + 20% for large family, in 2011 £s
£7.21 for water (OfWAT UK average + 20% for large family)
£6.00 for telephone/broadband - the cheapest BT anytime package

Starting from £500 means that you have £26.23 per week left over for the family, which is 62p per person per day to the nearest penny.

We can argue over these exact figures. Clearly the family could choose to be cold, or to shower infrequently to save money. But against that, private rented housing is typically less well insulated, the family are at home every day, so energy bills may be larger still. I have not included a mobile phone, or any calls to mobile phones, or to 08 numbers not included in the basic package.

In any case, even after rent and council tax, the family has only £1.64 per person per day to live on. No alternative figures will make any difference: this is simply not a living income for a family with four children in private rented accommodation in a cheap part of outer London"

We're under the 26k too OP.

But we're not poor compared to many people. We've both had a good education, interesting jobs, own home, lots of family support (occasionally financial - but also we can stay with DGPs in London and Grandpa will treat us to a nice day visiting museums and seeing the Christmas lights, that sort of thing.)

So, I just keep it quite light with the DCs about finances. I say some people might be richer than us but lots of people are poorer. And that there are lots of nice things you can do without money. dd is great for example at buying pressies for friends and family from the charity shop. She also likes seeing what bargains she can find in the shop and greengrocers for supper, and organising tea for us once a week or so. Home-made Soup and tinned peaches and custard have been recent triumphs ! She is fab - she's 12 !

Sometimes I say we can't afford everything. If she's going on the school trip to France for example she won't be able to go to the summer camp she has usually been to.
She dropped karate at one stage as I gave her a choice between that and something new she wanted to do. I think some awareness of cost and finances is no bad thing. But I hope it won't become a burden for them. I do worry a bit I've mentioned finances more often since things became tighter financially when I lost my P/T job recently.

But family were a big support over Christmas - nice pressie from DGPs, Aunties and Uncles, and DH picked up a great bargain games table in the charity shop. Also a stay with DGPs including meeting up with all cousins and a day in London, another afternoon in a paint your pottery place with little cousin, all added to the festivities.

We're lucky too that are outgoings are quite small, after paying off mortgage when we both inherited some money. But still feel we don't have much coming in to cover all we'd like to be able to do. DCs get increasingly expensive as they hit the teenage years don't they ? A holiday would be nice ! Think I better find a new job !

ok doing the sums and taking out the act im disabled and ds3 is so inact we are protected o took out DLa etc and done it if was single parent with 4dc

.Im fortunate that am out of private rented now .£26000 straight away 13200 would have gone to the LL .

so thats £12800

left .Discount Cb as peoplle up to £40000 can earn so tale away £3534 approc

so im now down to 9256 .Tale away council tax Benfit thats me down to £7886 .

thats then down to £151 a week
they will then tale of teh free school dinners have 3dc that entitled ( only 1 has but they will do the sums based on what they are entitled to ) so £6 a day times 5 is £30

£121 left take of £15 for water £20 for gas and £20 for electric bearing in mind most wil be on card/key meters taht charge more

would leave me £56 a week for food and clothes and any extras

Now relook at the figures again that im in h/a at £126 a week my hb is £6652

so think the problem lies when your forced into private rented a large amount of your money is swallowed up by Hb .And remember not all LL will takke Hb so often you pay a preimum for sometime substandard accomidation as they are aware that people can not move

And lets also remember those that are working in low income of £18000 Pa will also recieve top ups too of CB , WTC and CTC

op remember to add the WTC and the Cb and the CTC to your final sums to

oh and ds1 at collage gets ema of $20 a week but his bus fares are £28 a week and does not get help with food o take his own

I'm with lubey.

we've got no family support at all, which would help us out tremendously

we cant afford to move to be nearer family support as they live in an expensive area and its way out of our price bracket

our son knows what we earn as we discuss finances freely with our kids, we talk about working for what you want, saving up, making do and trying to get good exam marks so they have qualifications for the future and arent stuck in dead end low wage jobs like us

after a good think, I think what DC is trying to do is make people like us turn against people like benefits claiments, as people like us cant understand how it seems possible to get in benefits what we go out to earn

but this seems like a divide and conquer mentality, the real cheats are the private landlords who charge ridiculous rents and get this paid by housing benefit

there are just so many reasons for people to quarl amongst themselves-
(and sorry lubey "christ on a bike not another one" - you have your opinion I have mine so if you are bored dont read on )
-the question of why have kids if you cant afford them is a very valid one, although when its asked its usually pounced upon. But when we start a family, most of us look at having one, maybe two, maybe three if you're mad enough!!, but we have what we can afford, thinking of the future and all possibilities. Everyone knows there are no jobs for life now, so we try to plan for all eventualities...but last night on the news there was a story about a single mum of 5 kids who said she never planned on being a single mum (who does??)...but surely these days having 5 kids is a bit irresponsible unless you or your family have pots of money? Most families I know would love to have had more kids and the only thing preventing them is money and worries abouit the future? Isnt that a valid reason to stop at 2 or 3? I know someone with 5 kids doesnt expect to lose a partner/ a job /have an illness that prevents working, but these things sadly happen so it seems to me having 5 kids is a bit daft if you dont know you;ll always be financially secure.

Here are a couple of interesting facts:

1. The people that lose their homes WON'T be the single parent on White Lightening with seventeen kids and a plasma tv...because they live in affordable social housing.

The people that lose their homes will be the working poor, trying to live on the minimum wage and paying huge amounts of private rent.

1. If all benefits are cut, no one earning a low wage will be better off, the rich will be even better off as the savings will be ploughed into tax cuts.

1. Up unitl 2020 no low wages will rise, but higher earners will still see their wages increase.

1. WE ARE NOT IN THIS TOGETHER.

lubeybooby

"£392.31 for rent (the allowable rent for Tolworth, typical of a cheaper property)
£39.06 for council tax (Kingston Council, Band E)"

Those numbers are on the high side. They are assuming £1700/month for rent. A family of 2 adults and 4 childrens doesn't need anything bigger than a 3 bed flat/house. A 3 bed flat in Tolworth is more like £1100-£1500.

Also they are assuming a band E property in Kingston. Firstly, a flat in Tolworth might not be band E but Kigston does have one of the highest council taxes in the country.

thesecondcoming, there are worse things to do than scrub fucking loos, I do this for minimum wage and when me ds asks if we are poor i say "if you want money son you have to go and earn it and sometimes that includes scrubbing fucking loos"

you have a bad attitude, scrubbing some loos might be good for you