we earn less tha the 26k benefits cap and ds knows this - now he's asking us are we living in poverty, eg "I didnt know we were so poor mum"....

[ssd]

what do I tell him, yes we are poor?

I don't usually feel poor, I get minimum wage, dh gets 7£ an hour, we both work and pay all our bills

we dont have holidays and nights out, but there are loads of people living like that now

I've explained to ds about the welfare reforms and to someone of 12 it sounds simple, eg. why dont they work or do the sort of jobs you do mum (cleaner, babysitter, dishwasher, all crap minimum wage jobs), or why do they stay somewhere where their rent is so high, we couldnt aford to live there so why does someone who doesnt work live there?

....and so on

sigh...I dont know what to tell him, I just always say stick in at school so you might be able to get a batter job than me and your dad and you might have more choice than us

Did you londonone? so you would move a dc away from their father so it was hard for access and away from your support network and find a new nursery for your dc which as you know in London is impossible - what rubbish.

No my 'relationship problems' are not the fault of the state - this is all about the ridiculous rents in the southeast.

Do you have no compassion for anyone elses circumstances? What a sorry state we've come to - maybe this is the true Big Society in action.

Anyway, in case anyone was confused by my post, I guess I was just saying that it's all swings and roundabouts to me

Yes I have moved away from family and friends as have the vast majority of people I know. I find it astounding that you think the state should pay for you to stay in one place. I was brought up in a very expensive area, there is no way I could have afforded to live there when I left home. Should I have had some money from the government to top up my rent/income?

Me and DS are on benefits. Our household income including HB is less than 10k per annum, so we're not even half way to being poor yet.

Londonone, your ignorance is breath taking. I will claim my benefits. I paid into the system for 18 years (for 6 of them I paid more than 10k per annum in taxes). You are one illness/accident from needing benefits. Unless you have a trust fund or sizable inheritance to fall back on.

As the treasury loses more through tax evasion, than benefit fraud or even paying high rates of benefits, does it not make more sense to target this and use the funds to invest in our infrastructure and provide a cash injection that will go some way towards protecting existing jobs. After all the best way to reduce the benefits bill is to provide employment.

No?

Her child's nursery (which can often be very difficult to find another place elsewhere), the child's father, and her friends (support system) were all there. How can she afford to even be in a position to look for work if she has to move at that point, when she'll have her child full time then (as very probably not able to find another nursery place) with no support to help with childcare (child's father, friends) because she moved away from them?? It makes more sense to stay in the area.

Well londonone if you stopped and thought about it, if I had moved away from the nursery and therefore stopped working then I would be completely living off the state - but no I continued to work and look after ds on my own and hauled myself back out and am now not claiming anything - which scenario would you prefer?

And props to you for moving to a much cheaper area as a single parent with all that that involves.

Of course tax evasion should be targetted but the benefits bill is astonishing and needs to be brought under control.

We need a safety net, the system as it stands is far too large.

I didn't say it was easy to move area I said it was the option that many people who pay their own way HAVE to take. I don't think that the welfare state should provide options for those on benefits that are not available to those who are not getting benefits.

Pi - I have never suggested I am a single parent

The point is that they are available to everyone if you want to have to leave your house and your dh and live in a shithole - they are remarkably fair like that.

In your world who can and cant receive benefits then? People with relationship problems obviously not - does that include abuse and dv? Disability yes/no?Pensioners? The point is helping people who cant help themselves for whatever reason. That's the benchmark of a compassionate society.

Oh sorry - I thought in fact you said that you had moved away from your local area with a child and therefore knew how easy it was.

It's the attitudes you find behind this benefits cap and it's supporters that I find shocking

Sometimes there's so little empathy or compassion

I fundamentally believe in a smaller state than you! I have said on many occasions and I think upthread that IMO carers and the disabled should receive substantially increased benefits. Pensioners should also be provided for, though private companies should IMO be compelled to offer decent pension schemes.

I don't think relationship issues to be a matter for the state (domestic abuse should be dealt with through the criminal justice system). I don't believe in maternity pay or child benefit.

Of course in private companies wish to provide maternity pay then that is up to them.

I said I had moved away from my home area, and I certainly never said it was easy.

thesecondcoming, you must be feeling very prickly to have a go at a 12 yr old

"OP you cold explain to your son about the right wing media or do you think he's too dim to understand that? can't imagine where he gets that from...."

and you still haven't answered, if you are moaning about not having a haircut then why can't you work at something when your dh is at home (like I and loads of others have to??), no one said you should put 2 kids into nursery to clean toilets but you could clean them when your dh is at home? you wrote earlier "I have 2 (pre-existing) preschoolers and a work ethic. I am not going to put them in nursery so I can scrub fucking loos just to make 'the righteous taxpayer' feel I am beneath them?
I mean, what the actual FUCK would you want that for? I am not saying it's beneath me (it isn't) but I think having fuck all to get a hair cut or buy myself shoes/clothes is bad enough- don't you?"

so do you feel like answering me or do you just want to pick on 12 yr olds?

Nice to see you putting your ideas forward as your own POV, londonone

I think you've probably got some interesting and reasonable ideas, though personally I am in favour of keeping maternity pay and child benefit. Very sad to see children growing up in poverty, and I believe families need help to make a good start.

Could perhaps be some changes regarding state involvement in relationship issues. Sad certainly that more couples can't work things out amicably between themselves. But not everyone is reasonable are they ?

Out of curiosity, I did a Turn2Us calculation for a 35-year-old couple with a SAHM and five children (all healthy, no childcare) living somewhere like Wandsworth in a mortgaged home. My fictional man earns £35k and pays £150 a month to his pension plan.

They were entitled to just over £11k in benefits. So, although his take-home pay was slightly over £22k, the state tops him up to £34k net. This is bizarre because it shows the government accepts his family needs £34k but seems to think the same family will need £8k less than that if he loses his job or gets injured - £667 a month less? They'll lose their home

If people all move to c chaeper area places like my city where will they go?

thre's already 30k on housing list; a grand total of one place up for rent under HB cap atm

What makes people think there is a glut of housing ehre? There simply is not; our services cannot take an influx of thousands any more than anywhere else could. There are not teh school aplces, social services systems, GP palces or simply roofs available.

Op- please tell your son that we are on benefits but not a non working family: Dh works but low paid following a redundancy, I am a carer for our boys- 2 diagnosed with autism and in SN chools; in being diagnosed and another referred for ADD assessment. There is no one 'type' needing state help, and it's good for children to realise that.

THC quite

but don't worry apaprently there is a glut of housing down our way!

Or not.

Londoneone what do you mean by a smaller state?

OP, surely you must get some CTC/WTC on top of your salaries?

Hmm, so I guess the cap only really applies to households where the whole £26 k comes from benefit ?

( I admit, to us northerners (but grew up in London, yes moved to find work(for DH, DCs little) and affordable housing) it does seem quite a lot ! )

( wow, that was a bit of a mad sentence ! )

'but this seems like a divide and conquer mentality, the real cheats are the private landlords who charge ridiculous rents and get this paid by housing benefit

'

true

as for kids- we have four. When we conceived ds4 I was just about to train as a teacher, DH was managing a transport contract for a big multinational then they decided to seell off his arm of the business and having moved somewhere cheaper we found it was cheaper becuase there were no jobs here....

and the boys needed a lot of extra care etc

so he is retraining and has set up for himslef, I hope to go back this year and have been studying but lack of jobs is an issue and also ds1's care needs (tried to break my hand today)

Doing our best though, never planned for this to happen- had savings but running out now.