Hoo-bloody-ray! Child benefit cuts to be 'looked at for fairness'

[NoWayNoHow]

Basic logic and maths prevails at last!

Fingers crossed they actually find a fairer way to implement - I remember the uproar when it was first announced, simply because it was so ridiculously prejudiced against single salary families.

Goodness, this thread is terrible for changing the subject.

After 277 posts, it's probably time to change the subject :o

I live on just under £18k pa at the moment, sole parent earner with 2 DCs.

What doesn't make sense to me is determining universal credit on the basis of family or household income, but not doing that with child benefit.

Ooh, and I was just getting onto principles of logic.

Not really DadDad. Maybe if there was more support for those who are disgusted at the benefit cuts which affect disabled children then this may help. It appears that no one is interested. It's rather depressing really. I don't really find it anything to grin about if I'm being perfectly honest. It's shameful that you can complain about the loss of £20 when there will be families who can't afford nappies for their incontinent children!

LadySybil I was grinning about the idea that anyone thinks there's anything left to say on the original topic of child benefit. I'm more than happy to read about the cuts to disabled benefits, as I know very little about them and I am happy to learn more.
I genuinely appreciate your point and the need to keep my situation in proportion - as a HRT, I appreciate that I'm much better off than many even without CB.

The reason I'm angry is because I think it is shameful too that families can't afford nappies while childless higher-rate taxpayers are not being asked to contribute anything extra to the tax system when presumably they are best placed to do so.

I linked the thread DadDadDad. There's a lot of information on there and I know that your support will be very welcome. I trained as a children's nurse. I've known families camp out in the reception of Social Services because they have been denied support for their severly disabled child and have not slept properly in years. The government are proposing to cut the additional tax credits that families receive for their children, money which is spent buying things (like travel) which is not provided elsewhere. I'm ashamed to be in the UK at the moment.

I already signed up to protests about cuts to disabled benefits.

The other worry is that the government's cuts to local government will diminish respite care in the children's social care budgets.

There needs to be some bloody logic and humanity applied to all this.

Jojobee I am a piano teacher! Luxury indeed!

I wonder why they can't use the child tax credits system - which already has information about who's earning what - to sort out a fair joint income above which people wouldn't get child benefit. This might catch the people near the "cliff edge" anyway. Although presumably it would miss out the very highly paid who were never anywhere near claiming child tax credit.

It really is very simple, Child Benefit should be abolished. For everyone.
If you want kids, pay for them. Simple as.

If LittleGnu is not a troll, can someone please address the ignorance of her (or his) post. I'm too tired to do it - off to bed.

Oh and sign the petition that LadySybil has highlighted. I have.
epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/20968

Fine, LittleGnu. And if you want a pension in future years, make sure that you and you alone have put aside enough money to support yourself in old age. Don't be relying on anyone else's children to be paying tax, in order to support you. And if you need medical care, or meals on wheels, presumably it will be someone else's grown up children who you will be relying on to supply you with those things.

No man is an island - the nature of a civilised society is that we all contribute what we can, on the understanding that when we find ourselves in time of need, that support exists for us. We will all be the poorer for removing that support, because those who are doing all the paying, will end up resenting anyone who needs to take from the system. Which is exactly what the government want.

Have signed that petition DadDadDad

What I find strange, is that if they were proposing to remove child benefit from "poor" families (families where nobody works or where they have a very low income) then The Guardian et al would be up in arms and we would never hear the end of it. All because "the children didn't choose to be born" etc etc and how we must protect the children at all costs, regardless of the possible irresponsibility of the parents.

If this is the case, why doesn't it apply to middle class children? Why the assumption that middle class children don't need protecting in the same way as poor children or that there are no situations where middle class kids aren't well looked after and the money their parents get in CB isn't spent on them.

There seems to be an assumption that somehow the parents of middle class kids need to take more responsibility for their kids just because they might earn a bit more and if their CB is removed, it is just tough if they have other big expenses, however, if this was done to poor children then they must be protected at all costs, the state must intervene and CB must never be removed.

Just seems a bit unfair to me. We are either all in it together (in which case remove CB from all families and make all families be financially responsible for their kids or give it to all families regardless of their income!!)

There was a money bloke on the telly this morning saying that successive govts have looked at CB and decided there was no way of applying an income cut-off as taxation is individual and HMRC don't know who lives with who.

Apparently this has not changed and no-one has any idea how the govt are going to get this to work.

LittleGnu put quite simply why is it fair for a single income earner to support a whole family with their wage when the single person gets to keep all their income? The same applies to a dual income couple without children. If we don't support families when their children are dependent what we are saying is that we are all about the individual and place no worth on our nations children. We all need to grow up and realise that children are literally our future. If we do not have our children who will pay tax in the future to fund our society.

I absolutely agree that the whole benefit system needs an overhaul, one branch talking to another for instance and that HMRC needs starting again from scratch, but the Conservatives, let's not pretend that the Lib Dems have any real say any more, seem intent on hitting the same group over and over again.

I am a SAHM with 2 DC and my husband is a HRTP, for us it was ludicrous for me to return to work because we would have been financially worse off if I had! All of my wage and part of DH's would have gone on childcare.That was before I factored in petrol to get to work. (Airline so no way I could work from home.) When I was offered redundancy (very little actual pay off) I took it because it actually made more sense for me to do that!

I am also a part time student and have had 3 offers to study full time from September, which I intend to do. I will have to pay an annual train fare and childcare costs from them, which we are trying to save for now. We will miss CB if it is taken from us. We'll cope, god knows how, but we will. I do think though what' the bloody point sometimes.

I hear the argument about not whinging when doing so well as to be an HRT but our mortgage is horrendous and it's the only deal we could get, there is NO cheaper housing, trust me I've looked. We only run one car because DH is through his job, but he regularly works 60+ hours a week and is away one or two nights a week, some weeks it's 3 or 4. He studied EVERY weekend for his professional qualifications and I know he feels like he is being penalised for his decision to do that. His tax bill was £10k from April to now. £10k! Not including national insurance. Tell me how it is fair that we lose even bloody more because we are so "well off". We get no other benefit help at all. Not a bean. We do go on holiday but only because we are savvy enough to do stuff like save our tesco vouchers to pay for it!

I fully intend to be an HRT too and when that happens we will be glad to stop claiming our CB, but as a family once I have my degree we are tempted to just bugger off and leave the UK. So, well done Dave and Co you have the potential to drive out two more tax payers and their children because of your short sighted policies.

This government needs to realise that attacking Children and Families is a long term vote loser. I won't forget the way they have financially attacked me and my family, nor will I ever forgive them for the way they have done the same to my friends nor the way they attack the weakest and most defenceless in our society. The Conservatives are a disgrace and their constant protection of the most well off (my parents for instance, free bus pass, winter fuel allowance, etc despite 2x final salary pensions from the public sector and ENORMOUS amounts in the bank) whilst robbing from the disabled, children and families makes me sick to my stomach. (I have signed the petition by the way and happy to do so.)

Fairness is the key word and one that needs repeatedly telling to Gideon and Call me Dave. We are not all in this together, not by a long chalk.

Excellent post hermione. You said everything I wanted to say, but better!

Thank you DadDadDad

Excellent post Hermione.

My dp is half killing himself cycling 16 miles daily to save on petrol and we only have one very old car.We have no holidays.Our mortgage is horrendous,ditto heating bills,food,water etc.We get no help what so ever meanwhile plenty of others who don't need it do.

It's like a tropical sauna in my parents house,they have their heating on every single day whatever whilst their grankids shiver.As I said they have 3 X stocking pensions(we are going to have to look at not paying into ours if we loose CB)on top of the state pensions,investments coming out of their ears,they are fit,healthy,jet off here,there and everywhere,spend more on food for 2 than I do on 5.........Why are they and people like them getting all the help and not us?Why?Come on DC I want an answer. I know the answer(they are Tory voters) but I'd like to see you actually admit to it.

We're going to go abroad if we can or dp will look for a job elsewhere and not see the kids all week as to be perfectly frank this is the final straw and I suspect not the last straw by any means. Not that we'll be an awful lot better off when you factor in the extra tax,petrol,double bills etc.Thanks Dave from my dc they'll really appreciate that.

I have no intention of getting into debt and bar CB have always looked after myself.This isn't going to change a) because I don't want it to and b) because quite clearly the squeezed middle are those this gov choose to shit on and take from rather than give a miniscule bit of help for a limited number of years which we will more than pay for and work for in the years ahead(as will the children receiving it).

I would like to see the Winter Fuel Allowance means tested if they cut CB.

My Inlaws are off for 8 weeks this weekend to sunnier place - as they do every January - even if they didn't do that they is no way that they need WFA.

I dont regularly use my CB - it is put away - touched now and again when I have to buy two new pairs of school shoes , two new pairs of trainers , two new pairs of footballs boots all at once ! It has paid for in the past for private hearing test and ENT consultant because the waiting list has been too long . I have not squandered it on fags , booze and sky TV .

Most of it is put away to help with Uni fees if they go down that route or help them get their act together for first job. I dont need it now but I need it for my childrens future - as they are not going to get any financial help from anywhere else certainly not the Government , any Government that it whether Labour . Conservative , as we are seen as the 'middle class' who just ear a bit to much for any assistance but just about pay for everything that our children requires and support others in our society.

hermionestranger - completely agree! There is a brain drain from the UK of middle class individuals exactly because successive governments have decided it would be a good idea to penalise people who work hard whilst giving more and more money to those who don't. The end result will be that in a few years time the benefits bill will be bigger than the income tax take (in fact that is what has been happening and is why the UK is in so much debt). They need to change the system radically, not just so that work pays rather than a life on benefits but that the whole mind set changes and people want to work and better themselves. Call me Dave and his coalition of idiots seem to just be nuLiebore part 2 :(.

I agree Orwellian.

Dps skills are highly sort after abroad and they seem to pay far more,under no illusions that life financially is going to be tough anywhere at the moment but the fact is we will be better off instead of constantly being shat on and getting worse and worse off.I have so many highly skilled friends who are in the extremely squeezed middle bracket who are doing the same and looking to see what there is elsewhere.

Personally I'd rather stay here and pay my taxes here in order to help get this country back on it's feet but to be perfectly frank there is nothing here for us and it's clearly only going to get worse as the Tories expect us to bail out the rich and support the poor.

Not read the thread yet, but when they announced this, I laughed incredulously.
So it's unfair, then, to cut CB for higher earners?
Yes, those poor impoverished familys on 80k..

While I think the governments insane policy that a single parent family got their CB cut earning only half a two parent familt (which blatantly is unfair) I also can see that, if we have to cut benefits at all, why not a benefit that many people do not need at all.

Many families on high salaries put the CB directly in a child's trust fund or something, rather than actually using it to buy neccesseties, which just adds to the richer childs privelidges.(sp)

It just amazes me that CB is considered an "OK" benefit (precicesly because it is often claimed by people who don't need it) whereas housing benefit, for example, is shameful and a massive drain.

If they want to go back on some of their unfair policies, they could see about re-instating my housing benefit allowance to the level it was.
Currently we are £50 a month worse off since they cut it, and now living , as a part time working single parent, on £35 a week after covering bills and the extra rent.

i will be tip into the hrt band this year and it is the "unfairness" of this that makes me fume. My DH can only work partime (which is the beginning and end of school day) due to a disability that his employers would make no reasonable adjustments for to continue to work fulltime, so we pay childcare before/after school for 2 children. We do this because he is 47 and his limitations mean he unlikely he will get another job (has tried hard to) and we believe it is good for people to work if they can.

we are not extravagant and dont have a lavish lifestyle, whilst i might not like losing CB i can "accept" it if fair, what i cant accept is that a household who has a joint income of 35K + more than mine will still be eligible. As for it not being cost effective to means test they seemed quite capable of that with tax credits across the board, so cant see what the problem is there.

Dont pay it for children not resident in the country and stop wfa for the well off and those living in warmer climes, maybe it will start seeing the fairness then.

Have they said anything how they mean to apply it in cases where a woman with children lives with a man who is not the children's father? Will cb still be cut if he is a hrt? Just seems illogical when the children are not his.