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Hoo-bloody-ray! Child benefit cuts to be 'looked at for fairness'

448 replies

NoWayNoHow · 13/01/2012 09:10

Basic logic and maths prevails at last!

Fingers crossed they actually find a fairer way to implement - I remember the uproar when it was first announced, simply because it was so ridiculously prejudiced against single salary families.

OP posts:
alemci · 14/01/2012 18:22

but Northern Wreck the families earning just over 40K are being penalised. we are aware that the 80K people are probably quite comfortable.

good post Hermione

breadandbutterfly · 14/01/2012 21:33

I think it's a clear election loser for the Tories - a surefire way to realy piss off all their core vote.

Re the disability benefit cuts - completely agree; but do remember that two wrongs don't make a right; they make an even-wronger... Both of these policies are wrong, and for similar reasons. Basically, that they attack the defenceless ie children and disabled people and those who can't vote or don't usually vote Tory if they do. They don't deal with those who caused the problems ie bankers at all.

planetpotty · 14/01/2012 21:47

Im 31 and never voted Blush I know before I get slated!

The CB situation has ensured I will be voting next time that's for sure!

FlangelinaBallerina · 14/01/2012 22:34

A few people have suggested on this thread that it isn't the state's responsibility to ensure that SAHPs with financially abusive partners get some money of their own. While that's true, it's also true that if all these financially abused partners left their spouses, it could end up being more expensive for the rest of us. Imagine the costs of setting up X number of abused, escaping new single parents from scratch. Housing benefit, income support/JSA, child tax credits as well as the CB. Some of them would find sufficiently well paying work not to need this in the long run. But the job market is brutal atm. The SAHP trying to return to the workplace after a few years out is going to find it hard to get such work, unless their skills are in demand.

Hence, it might cost less just to keep paying CB. I think this, rather than some of the arguments articulated in this thread is likely to be the most persuasive argument. Additionally, I don't think some of you realise how completely alienating a few of the posts here are to people who have less money than higher rate taxpayers, even with TCs etc. There are people who are in poorly paid jobs who have to work extremely long hours in poor conditions, who'll get booted if they try to avoid the 'voluntary' overtime. There are also people on minimum wage in London who aren't with parents or in housing association/council homes. Now, I get that a family on 43k with a SAHP and 2 kids in the south east won't have much left at the end of the month. And that the child benefit might mean the difference between eg whether the kids can have swimming lessons or not, or whether the car can be fixed. The rants are legitimate, but not necessarily the best way to present a case. Better to focus on the costs, rather than how difficult things can be for a higher rate taxpaying family. Simply because a lot of people just aren't going to sympathise, whereas they might be more receptive to a financial argument.

Seth · 15/01/2012 06:00

Up until 2 years ago I was happily married and we earned 80k as a joint income and received child benefit which we didn't need I'll admit.I am now a single parent earning 43k in London.For those of you who say 43k is a decent salary to live on it is not.I work 4 days a week, feel like I barely see my kids and have very little left to live on.I have friends who work 2 days a week whose kids wear Boden who will keep their CB.I will lose it and be paying more tax.I did not chose to be a single like many others out there and it seems excruciatingly unfair towards us.Life as a single patent an incredibly tough existence even without any money worries.It's hugely discriminating and feels like a huge kick in the teeth.I have worked very hard to get to where I am today in my career and feel resentful that my loss allows people in f better financial situations to carry on putting their CB away for a rainy day.I am furious and so glad I didn't vote for Cameron.

ScroobiousPip · 15/01/2012 07:16

honinmyo - i am now abroad but my situation is almost the same as yours, sole HRT working parent. i would miss out on CB while other families who earn more, and have 2 parents (which often means less childcare costs if they stagger their workhours) would still be entitled to it.

i am a bit puzzled though about the comments upthread about people overseas getting CB. whenever i'm overseas my CB has stopped from the date i left the country, until the date i returned.

one things for sure, if the tories and lib dems go ahead with this daft scheme in any shape or form, neither party will get my vote in the future.

EdithWeston · 15/01/2012 11:37

On a slightly different note, one of the stated benefits of the new UB is that it will eliminate the unintended effect of thresholds, perverse incentives, cliff-faces (or whatever they want to call them this week).

So they have a blank sheet of paper. And they introduce a change which introduces a threshold, and a blatantly unfair one to boot; and even now, two years on have still not dealt with the NI issue.

This is a demonstration of sheer incompetence. And shows they cannot be trusted with welfare reform, if they can make such a complete bollox of a single change.

alemci · 15/01/2012 11:53

Scroo my comments were about people receiving child benefit for children who did not reside here and whether this was ever checked to see if the children even existed. I don't understand why this isn't ever adressed (well I do) but I still think it is swept under the carpet.

I think kids who live here should have CB not those in other countries. Is it spent on the children? I don't think CB was set up for this purpose.

EdithWeston · 15/01/2012 12:32

BTW: just for context: there are about 7.8million who receive CB, and it costs about £12,000,000 CTC goes to 5.75m and costs about £19,000,000 (09/10).

Surely the simplest, and cheapest ways to save money from CB bill is to

  • keep universality (no new admin costs, NI issues covered, no "step")
  • continue the freeze, even make small cuts (eg to 2nd child rate)
  • if not enough, and in light of the many arguments upthread about childcare costs being a justification, then cut off at age 11 (when such costs fall/vanish) (I don't support this justification btw, but do think it has more logic than the current proposals).
FlangelinaBallerina · 15/01/2012 13:03

I think, am not certain, that the only way you can receive child benefit for children who are abroad is if you are an EEA national exercising treaty rights. Its part of the EU wide agreement, I believe. So an Italian working in the UK with their children back in Rome would get child benefit here but not in Italy. And vice versa for the Brit in Italy whose kids are still here. This is probably what people are referring to?

woollyideas · 15/01/2012 14:19

Edith - Why link childcare costs to CB? CB was never intended to cover childcare - that's what tax credits are for.

People who really, really need CB (ie. people on low incomes) need that money after their children turn 11, as much as they do when their children are young. You don't stop feeding or clothing your children just because they reach their 11th birthday.

EdithWeston · 15/01/2012 17:29

woollyideas - thank you! I think you're the only other person on the thread who agrees with me that childcare is a total red herring in this!

Orwellian · 16/01/2012 10:56

Just cap it at 2 kids. Then if you want more you pay for them yourself. Why should families who already pay a considerable amount of tax and NI have to pay even more so that families who don't work get more, whilst the working families' kids lose out.

In fact, why doesn't everyone just stop working, have lots of kids and go on benefits. It looks like that is what the Government want us all to do...

ElaineReese · 16/01/2012 11:36

What if your second baby was twins?

niceguy2 · 16/01/2012 14:29

@Elaine. I think what Orwellian is saying is that there'd be two rates. 1 child and 2 or more

So if you have twins then you'd only get the amount for two kids even though you really had three.

In my mind there does need to be a cap on child benefit of some description. Whether or not the right level is 2 kids is a matter of debate.

We really must get away from the idea that the state should provide us with money for the lifestyle we've chosen to have without any limits

ElaineReese · 16/01/2012 16:04

I know what she is saying. But you might plan two children in the manner approved by Orwellian etc and then get three through no fault of your own.

Child benefit is for the child, not the parent, and shouldn't be used to push some unpleasant agenda about how many children people should have. It's not child five's fault that he isn't child number two, is it?

hairytaleofnewyork · 16/01/2012 19:30

Surely people should plan to have children that they can independently support?

ElaineReese · 16/01/2012 19:40

Yes. Now hand me that crystal ball....

BoffinMum · 16/01/2012 20:03

If children are a lifestyle accessory, like some sort of poodle, perhaps we should have to buy dog licences for them rather than receive benefits for them instead? Offset the national debt, and all that? Because of course they have no function whatsoever than to entertain their parents.

hairytaleofnewyork · 16/01/2012 21:09

"Yes. Now hand me that crystal ball...."

Clearly people's circumstances change - but to plan more children based on the benefits you can get seems crazy to me.

Children are not a "lifestyle accessory" but they aren't actually a right either.

ElaineReese · 16/01/2012 22:04

Yes, but this thread isn't about the straw couple who plan their families according to what benefits they can get.

hairytaleofnewyork · 16/01/2012 22:37

No, the op isn't, but there are references to that.

malakadoush · 19/01/2012 23:39

So, I go back to work - not an option to be a SAHM - after having children and pay lots into the system and get very little back out, and now we are going to lose Child Benefit.

Others are in a position to choose to stay at home with their children, pay less into the system, and get to keep child benefit or, where their partner is HR potentially have a lesser cut. (if they lose the 'cliff edge' aspect of the policy)

So how is that fair?

niceguy2 · 20/01/2012 09:17

But Elaine. Your logic is slightly flawed. Firstly we must ration benefits at some point. One of the reasons we're in this mess is because we've been throwing money around like it grows on trees. For example winter fuel allowance..... and this debate is about ofc is about child benefit.

Using your logic, if I have 10 kids, I'd expect the council to provide me with a large mansion. Most of us would feel that is unfair and it's not the job of the taxpayer to continually provide more money for each child YOU choose to have.

Like I said above, I can see there's a debate over where the line should be drawn but I do think there should be a limit. Be it 2 kids, 3 or 4 kids.

mike1May · 20/01/2012 13:11

Interesting comparison I picked up elsewhere:

Lets compare a family with a total income of £22k to mine with one earner on £43k.
We have 4 kids and we will get £31,459 a year after tax and NI (no benefits). If you have two earners getting £11k each that's 2 x £9,842 after tax/NI. Then with 4 kids you would get £3,146 in Child Benefit and £9,012 in Tax Credits. That makes £31,842.
TOTAL INCOME ON £43K = £31,459. TOTAL INCOME ON £22K = £31,842.

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