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Hoo-bloody-ray! Child benefit cuts to be 'looked at for fairness'

448 replies

NoWayNoHow · 13/01/2012 09:10

Basic logic and maths prevails at last!

Fingers crossed they actually find a fairer way to implement - I remember the uproar when it was first announced, simply because it was so ridiculously prejudiced against single salary families.

OP posts:
EdithWeston · 13/01/2012 22:02

"sacked half the whitehall mandarins who come up with these illogical policies"

I doubt very, very much that this policy originated from Whitehall.

EdithWeston · 13/01/2012 22:08

"but, if they're a family of 4 with one sahm parent and 2 kids.... they don't need nursery or after school club, do they?"

Nor do WOH families, typically, when children reach secondary age. As I posted above, I think childcare is a total red herring in this. But if I'm wrong, then the way ahead could be to pay only until the September after each child's 11th birthday.

niceguy2 · 13/01/2012 22:16

Pekka surely he should do if he wants to bring more income in.

But that's the point Hairy. If you are near the HRT limit, there's a good chance that by doing overtime and edging into HRT means you are giving yourselves a pay CUT.

Who in their right mind would volunteer to work MORE to get LESS?

DadDadDad · 13/01/2012 22:16

A lot of the comments about unfairness focus on the effect on different CB recipients. More fundamentally, it seems unfair that in wanting to increase the burden on HRT payers (OK, sounds reasonable: they earn more) the Govt is proposing a measure that makes HRT payers with children worse off than HRT payers without children. That's why I've written this letter to the Govt. What do you think?....

It is entirely reasonable that, as you seek to improve public finances, higher-rate taxpayers take a larger share of the pain than those on lower incomes. One way would be to increase the higher tax rate to 41% or 42% (somewhere around this raises a billion pounds or so, matching the amount that your proposal reportedly saves). This spreads the burden over far more people than the child benefit proposal. So, please answer this: why is it better to remove child benefit from households with higher-rate taxpayers than to make a modest increase to the higher rate of tax?

My answer is that it is not better: it is unfair and it generates practical difficulties. Leaving aside the ?cliff-edge? issues that have been mentioned recently by the Prime Minister, I give some reasons for my answer below. And please note that Mr Osborne?s answer today that ?it is fair that those who are better off... make a contribution to the saving of money? does not address my question, unless you argue that amongst higher rate payers, the ones with children are better off, as if we make a profit from housing, feeding and clothing a child for £20 per week!

Your proposal means a thousand pounds annual loss in one-child households, and much more where there are more children. By comparison, even a 2p rise in the higher rate would typically take a few hundreds of pounds from affected households. Moreover, households with children are less able to afford a loss than those without. Why take money from children, when you could spread it across all of the better-off?

Clearly a rise in the higher tax rate is progressive, unlike your proposal.

A rate rise is much simpler to administer and to vary than your proposal. The task of identifying higher-rate payers who share a household with a benefit recipient ? then clawing back the benefit ? has political, practical and possibly legal difficulties.

Setting out his principles for tax last year, the Chancellor said ?taxes should be efficient and support growth?. Varying an existing tax rate is more efficient than your proposal. More importantly, a key contribution to growth is nurturing the nation?s children, which a universal child benefit has successfully supported.

The Chancellor also said ?taxes should be... easy to comply with? and ?the tax system should be fair... and ask the most from those who can most afford it.? Removing child benefit as proposed when you could raise a tax rate is at odds with these principles.

Ministers can surely persuade the public that a small tax rise on the ?rich? is better than what amounts to a tax on children. Why are politicians so scared of tax rises? A few years ago, received wisdom said no politician would touch universal child benefit ? so challenging received wisdom is possible! Please show leadership and reconsider.

SardineQueen · 13/01/2012 22:20

I started off thinking nice letter. And I do like your letter.

But then I started to suspect that your first name might be ED... And I therefore claim my £5 Grin

newcastlebabe80 · 13/01/2012 22:21

Wow. I would love to pay £600 for mortgage. Ours is £1,000.00 pm. Wasn't always that high but had to switch to repayment as endownments covering part of lendind had a shortfall. I suppose that's our fault too. Not every HRT paying household is living the life of riley.

SardineQueen · 13/01/2012 22:21

Although I do have children, so might have to waive that £5 after all, and hand it over to Gideon Sad

newcastlebabe80 · 13/01/2012 22:23

Yes, why pick on people with children. After all they are the taxpayers of the future. Without them there would be no state pensions for us.

DadDadDad · 13/01/2012 22:27

Sardine No I'm not a Milliband. I voted LibDem which is why I'm going to send this to Danny Alexander (Osborne's no.2) to see if I can prick his liberal conscience in a right-wing govt

SardineQueen · 13/01/2012 22:32

"Sardine No I'm not a Milliband."

I say Balls to that.

SardineQueen · 13/01/2012 22:35

Good luck with Danny Alexander though.

It is a good letter but he seems to be hypnotised by his situation.

maybe the lords? shirley williams is brilliant. And they have blocked some of the welfare stuff (for now).

SardineQueen · 13/01/2012 22:36

Good Eggs in the Lib Dems#

Vince
Menzies
Shirley

Sure there are lots more
Have voted for them myself in the past but thank god not at the last election.

BartonStacey · 13/01/2012 22:52

Excellent letter DadDadDad. I would very happily sign that.

SardineQueen · 13/01/2012 23:02

I think it's there to cut n paste stacey Smile

Send to your MP is a good strart

grubbalo · 13/01/2012 23:19

Brilliant letter DadDadDad, completely agree and is the point I made earlier. I would begrudge paying additional money far more if it seemed like the people who caused this bloody mess in the first place were actually also contributing via tax increases, rather than the govt just hitting the middle income families. I fully appreciate we all need to do "our bit". The method they are currently proposing just seems so damn unfair and so bloody stupidly administratively burdensome to apply.

DadDadDad · 13/01/2012 23:32

I wrote to my Tory MP when the proposal was originally floated, so I thought I'd try a different tack this time. I've no objection to anyone copying this to their MP if they think it will help, but may be a good idea to personalise it....

DadDadDad · 13/01/2012 23:39

And, anyway, what do people think to the simple idea of just raising the HR to 42p instead of taking CB?

Come to think of it doesn't the PM read Mumsnet? Come on, Cameron, tax the rich not children!

breadandbutterfly · 13/01/2012 23:39

Great letter, DaddadDad - i'd sign that.

Also, people seem to miss the point that it is not 'parent benefit' but 'child benefit' - it helps pay for children becase children cost money. (A lot more than what is received in child benefit though; you'd have to be mad to think anyone would have children to make a 'profit' on the child benefit!) If they want to take money off the better off then this is clearly not a fair or sensible way to do it - it impacts on the kids (who clearly did not cause the financial crash yet will be paying anyway thanks to university fee/education cuts), whilst leaving childless high earners (who probably have muchhigher disposable income so could take the hit more easily) unaffected.

Given that HRT taxpayers pay most tax it seems entirely reasonable that their children get at least child benefit - after all their parents' taxes are paying for it. In most other countries this is not describd as a 'benefit' anyway; it is instead regarded as a tax break ie can be set against tax bill, so you are only getting back a bit of what you earn anyway. Discouraging all those who earn a bit more to stop earning at 42k is surely going to cost the govt more in lost taxes than the 1 billion it saves anyway, even before you take the huge admin costs into consideration.

DadDadDad · 13/01/2012 23:48

And of course I'm motivated purely by a desire for a just society and not because I have three kids (hence my name) and stand to lose £2400 or so Wink

DadDadDad · 13/01/2012 23:50

It is worth writing to your MP especially if they are Tory or LibDem - if it fills their postbag, they will start worrying about losing their seat on issues like this...

LadySybilDeChocolate · 13/01/2012 23:51

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1380515-AIBU-about-the-government-lying-about-DLA?msgid=29482179#29482179 And while they are doing this they are also cutting tax credits to thousands of disabled children! Hmm They should be ashamed!

LineRunner · 14/01/2012 00:01

Like your letter, too Dad.

It's a shame Danny Alexander's a bit thick. Actually it's a bit scary.

Sevenfold · 14/01/2012 00:03

LadySybilDeChocolate thankyou

LadySybilDeChocolate · 14/01/2012 00:06

These families live on far less then 40k a year. Seems so stupid to cut a child's benefits with one hand and give out to those who earn far more with the other. If child benefit was only given to those over 40k would you think this was fair?

Thank you Sevenfold Smile

DadDadDad · 14/01/2012 00:06

I tell you what's scary. When I looked Danny up on the Treasury website, I discovered he's 2 years younger than me. I'm nearly the same age as the PM - that makes me feel old!