Did I just hear this right? Is Michael Gove blaming bullying on teachers and sayng the answer is to be able to sack them more easily?

[OhBuggerandArse]

On Today just now.

Oh how I loathe him.

Nurses can do no wrong in the public eye, angels each and every one of them

Fair point, although I think that this govermnent has commented (albeit not in the most joined up manner) on the social issues that cause a lot of the problems in schools - poor parenting etc. But then it just gets accused of being judgemental and wanting us all to turn the clock back to 1953.

wasabipeanut well Said

maypole the 18 teachers you refer to as the only ones to be sacked for incompetence are, in fact, those struck off the GCTE register, a bit like a doctor being struck off. The number of staff moved on/sacked, etc. will be far more than this.

I've no problem with crap staff being sacked, but can't see what's wrong with the current rules.

Also, what is incompetent?

I'll give to examples of lesson observations where the rules are followed to the letter.

1. I set up a lesson involving the use of video. I checked the equipment before the lesson. OK. In the lesson, the equipment failed. I went to get one that did work. My lesson was downgraded from excellent to satisfactory because the equipment failed.

1. During a lesson a pupil was off-task, not getting on with the work. I intervened, and after some resistance, s/he got on with the work. All other pupils in the 30+ class worked well. My lesson was failed because of the one pupil. The inspector said I'd handled the situation perfectly, but the rules said that because the pupil was off-task, it was a failure of my teaching.

What will the rules be?

That should be "two". Doh!

echt sorry all I will say say if teachers strike on this issue it will simply look to parents you are sheltering incomptant colleagues and want to keep the stauts quo

Parents , ofsted ss and the youth offending team know education THE WAY IT is is not fit for purposes the only people who don't seem to know it is some teachers

Poor parenting is part of the problem but SO IS POOR TEACHING

Not all teachers are bad but a rotton apple spoils the bunch the only teachers in my view who would gain form keeping the system the same are bad ones

If teachers strike I don't think they will have the publics support on this one

I am a teacher and whilst I do think that really bad staff with no hope of improving should be sacked for the children's sake I do alos believe that staff should get more support in order to make their job easier in the first place. Smaller class sizes for example, the power to discipline effectively. The notion that every lesson should be all singing an ddancing has to go and if the kids don't want to learn it should be widely seen that IT IS NOT THE TEACHER'S FAULT. Honestly- you could prepare the most amazing lesson in the world and still some kids would not be interested. Some kids just aren't academic; not my fault and disaffected kids refuse to be inspired no matter how hard I try. Most are lovely though and want to learn.

maypole I didn't raise the question of striking - perhaps you mean another poster.

I can't think of anyone who thinks education is OK the way it is. Really, anyone. Disagreement lies with causes and solutions.

The current system allows staff to be supported, and problems worked out. Problems tend to arise when the systems are not implemented, the unions are brought in, and then it's boo hoo nasty unions, when all that is being followed is due process. It is very hard work seeing this kind of thing through, but in the name of justice, it must be done.

FWIW, I have begun competency proceedings on a member of staff, and also been the union rep when someone has been on the receiving end of one.

Make teacher training better!

I have friends who spent 4 years studying for a B.Ed at university, and they have a much better understanding of teaching: theory and practice. I did a PGCE part time over 2 years, whilst already working as a teacher. I am not an incompetent teacher, but I know I would be much better if I had spent 4 years training before I started.

I worry about some of the young women who are recently qualified teachers: I'm sure they have some wonderful qualities, but they are encouraged to focus on the curriculum that they need to get through rather than on gaining a deeper understanding of the children's needs, and addressing those needs. Teachers with more experience can juggle these 2 things, even in a work environment where the practice of education is hijacked by politicians who look for quick fixes.

I do not trust Michael Gove. My 7 year old heard him on Today Programme and pronounced him an idiot immediately. even kids know he's full of shit.

I did a PGCE and my lessons are always either good or outstanding. Your practice develops with time and I don't agree that longer spent at university would help this. Ultimately, you need to be trusted to teach your own classes and schools would not allow students to do this. They would also remain cautious about allowing them to teach exam classes, which is obviously an important part of their development as a teacher.

The biggest issue in teaching remains poor leadership. Bad teachers are often used as scapegoats for wider issues. If you look at any Ofsted report where a school is failing, the teaching may be satisfactory or poor, but there are many, many other areas, including leadership, that will be poor too. Everything needs to function as a whole. I'm not saying don't get rid of people who aren't doing their jobs properly, but doing this will not be the magic pill that improves education.

Posters have said about failing schools where a new Head has arrived, sacked a couple of teachers, and suddenly the school is hugely improved. This is not because the poor teachers were holding it back (how can a couple of people hold back an entire school??), this is because the last Head was rubbish and the new Head obviously isn't. Poor schools inevitably have weak leadership and this is why many 'Trusts' or groups of schools are being formed: to share good practice and to raise standards. It needs time though, but IME is working very well indeed. Teachers are being allowed to set the path rather than local government.

I trained in a school that only had an acting Head. A new Head started and the school went from being a sink school to one of the best in the area in 5 years. He didn't sack any teachers.

1. I set up a lesson involving the use of video. I checked the equipment before the lesson. OK. In the lesson, the equipment failed. I went to get one that did work. My lesson was downgraded from excellent to satisfactory because the equipment failed.

2. During a lesson a pupil was off-task, not getting on with the work. I intervened, and after some resistance, s/he got on with the work. All other pupils in the 30+ class worked well. My lesson was failed because of the one pupil. The inspector said I'd handled the situation perfectly, but the rules said that because the pupil was off-task, it was a failure of my teaching.

So very true, and I don't think people outside the classroom realise what we are expected to pull out of the bag in order to show that we are 'good' teachers.

Not all teachers are bad but a rotton apple spoils the bunch

Yes, that's really how it is. I work with one weak person, and therefore I am 'spoiled' too????

Are you Mr Gove maypole?

I'm going now. I vowed never to comment on teaching debates on here and I have been sucked in.

Gah.

I would like to add that bad management should be dealt with too. I have worked in so many disorganised departments where none of the teachers are sufficiently supported and where noone knows what they are doing because they havn't been briefed sufficiently.
There is a bullying culture among staff unfortunately. In no way should poor performance should be an excuse for bullying; it filters through to the kids. Poor performance should result in appropriate support for the struggling teacher.

Kinkydorito, I think the metaphor was not completely understood.

Echt, your second example happened to me. I got downgraded because there was one student in the class that had not made progress. This was because he wasn't paying attention, but it was my fault, of course? The kicker was, this student was eighteen years old. I was supposed to be begging and pleading someone who was an ADULT to please, please pay attention and learn something.

I feel your pain, Brian.

Gove's unnecessarily aggressive tone is disgusting, regardless of what he is saying. Nobody who is poor at any job should be allowed to stay in it. However, nobody who is clueless should be allowed to make decisions which affect the lives of millions of children and teaching staff.

My idea:

Take education out of the hands of politicians and have it run by a board of trained educationalists: Ed Psychs, ex teachers, Professors in ed theory, Experienced and successful head teachers etc. They would obviously need to be answerable to the Govt in some way I suppose. But at least they might use their expertise to make decisions which are for the benefit of education and young people. Rather than to be trying to curry favour and get re-elected. They would also be able to have a long term vision rather than a 4 year plan.

I think the proposed time frame is too short and open to abuse. There are good and bad in every profession. Having taught myself, there are very few incompetent teachers. Where schools are failing it is down to senior management, what steps are being taken to remove them?

as others have said; poor teachers leave the profession before they come to the position of being sacked which is why the statistics being offered are not accurate.

What are we going to be measured against? Is there going to be a fixed level? If so, who is going to come up with the magic figure that suits every type of school/pupil/backgrounds/behaviour/management/expectations/ambition?

No 2 pupils are the same; pupil A making a 2 level progress is just as fantastic as pupil B coming into school with a pen in some instances.

What will help ALL of my colleagues up and down the country is for the 'new initiatives' to STOP and let us get on with our jobs without having to jump through another new hoop every term.

What will help is for the specifications not to be changed on a yearly basis.

What will help is for schools to receive a budget to allow them to fund new textbooks/equipment/support

Until any of these things happen I will just have to get used to the weekly teaching bashing from spit Gove

missslc
"Everyone in schools know who the bad teachers are...especially the kids."

ROTFL

oh sorry you where serious.

MollieO
"We heard this story on the news on the way to school this morning. Ds (7) said that's good. Mr X (head teacher) will now be able to sack Mrs Y (his teacher). Have to say that I think it would be a very good move indeed!"

that is everything that is wrong with this.

just because your son doesn't like his teacher doesn't mean that she is a bad teacher.

Actually, if you look at comments on this thread from teachers, they are saying that they do know which their "bad" colleagues are. They may be few in number, and surviving current inspection and performance management issues, but they are there: and no-one is supporting their continuation in the classroom.

So it all boiled down to - how do we take that teachers' knowledge of who the bad colleagues are and prevent them from impinging on children's life chances. Anyone?

KinkyDorito if you cant see how say a bad maths teacher would effect a child's ability in science say then i more worried about your skills to be honest

a bed teacher spoils the bunch
if a child's English teacher is bad that then effects the child in all other lessons

i had a dreadful English and maths teacher coupled with poor parenting i ended up leaving school with only two GCSEs

my English teacher who i had three years in a row didn't come in half the time and the other times she was in would disappear off on errands and just tell us to turn to page 5 she was forever getting a coffee of just nipping out to talk to mrs xxxxxxx
always had to get the head of year to deal with pupils i clearly remember a girl who came on her period in class and burst out crying the teacher could not deal and got the head of head figg knows what HE could of done the whole thing was awful.

and our books went unmarked for weeks and i can honestly say with in that 3 years i was never set one piece of home work

coupled with my below par parents who didn't bother to check why i could barely spell it all went tits up

and even when you are a loving involved parent and you suspect the teacher who is teaching your child is below par their is very little you can do than hope they leave or your child moves class which is not good enough and often the head know your correct but are powerless to do anything

Boney. No one, parent or child, in ds's class likes this teacher. Parents and children in the other class in the year were relieved they didn't get her.

No one in the four years above (who have had her as a teacher) like her. It may be that other years beyond that didn't like her either but I don't know those people. This Christmas was the first year in the 6 years ds has been in education that I have not bought his teacher a present. Pupils in his class left at Christmas because of her and I wouldn't be surprised if others left at Easter. She is truly dreadful. If something can be done to encourage these type of teachers to leave the profession I think it would be a very good thing indeed.