Did I just hear this right? Is Michael Gove blaming bullying on teachers and sayng the answer is to be able to sack them more easily?

[OhBuggerandArse]

On Today just now.

Oh how I loathe him.

I think teaching is sadly one of those professions where there are many committed and enthusiastic people but there are quite a few who are unenthused, worn out and uninterested, whether that's due to length of time in the profession or simply not being cut out for it in the first place!
And when we have those teachers in charge of our children it's really, really noticeable. They suffer terribly and one bad year can really set them back.
So, by all means, give teachers extra training and support, supervision and opportunities but I agree with Gove (much as it really pains me!) that this process should not go on for an eternity and those that can't cut the mustard need to be got rid of as soon as possible.
Sadly, how we stop those teachers simply transferring to another school and inflcting their lack of skills on a whole new set of children I don't know. Fortunately round our way there are more teachers chasing each job than you can shake a stick at so it's mostly the older, knackered (bless 'em) teachers that are gradually being replaced as they retire. Frankly though, many of them should have been gone a long time ago and if headteachers could have had more power to move them out then many, many children would have benefited.

there are a lot of crap teachers out there, my BF who is a head of year has to continually deal with failing embittered teachers who she has no power to get rid of. My DS has not had his 'proper' teacher for more than 3 weeks since he started this year. She just comes in for 3 weeks then buggers off on the sick again so she can still claim. Have asked the head why they still employ her when she has not done a full terms work for 4 years and he just says - there is nothing he can do it would be unfair dismissal. ridiculous. If you dont like the job/can't cope with the job get another job and leave dont mess the kids around so you can go off on the 'sick' at our expense. Sorry ranted then didn't I.

Im slightly confused, why if there is a period of probation during qualification and NQT in post why are there failing teachers reaching our classrooms. and on the point of teachers who have been qualified for longer and begin to fail then surely a term is not long enough to determine development and progression. I believe peer mentoring would go far better in maintaining tecahing standards. I agree failing teachers should be taken out of the classroom and support and management implimented. But it just seems that this does make it easer to remove hard working teachers who are lacking support, pushing them out the back door, I feel a lot of wasted mony on employment tribunerals further adding to the poor respect for teachers.

is there a registaring body for teachers such there is for social workers and medical staff. At least then indipendant investigations are carried out after complaint to the GSCC or BMA before removing parctioners liscence to practice. maybe should happen in teaching. would remove the power of headteachers who may abuse such power.

I'm interested at how many of the responses so far have highlighted time off sick vs actual incompetence per se. There may very well need to be a major review of sick pay etc but I don't see how competence proceedings can be related to dismissal for ill-health.

In my experience, if the HT is a good one and is implementing the things that will work and is supporting their staff and encouraging them, then the ones who are not cut out for the job even after being helped will stand out. the HT should then be able to work through procedures to get rid of the teacher.

What I have seen is poor HTs who implement things that don't work in their school, who have teachers in their staff they don't like and would rather not have around,no matter how good they are. HTs who couldn't teach a satisfactory lesson never mind an outstanding one. Where support isn't given and so the teachers are ground down in the hope that they leave. Where HTs change the goal posts to get try and get rid of teachers who they perceive as rubbish when they could just use a bit of guidance and encouragement.

I have seen HT who shirk responsibilities during the school day and shut themselves off in their paperwork world, coming out to tell everyone they have got it wrong.

My DH had been producing outstanding and good lessons over a period of time, the HT changes and the new one says his lessons are unsatisfactory, disagreeing with Ofsted, LA link inspectors and consultants. Just because he taught in a way the HT did not like. DH changed his style to suit HT and what a surprise, back to good and outstanding. He raised the results and had the strongest dept in the school. Still working through forgiving this man who had turned our lives upside down by forcing DH to resign due to an admin error. Can't go into it but OH my goodness, you really have no idea. So much is down to the HT.

Re behaviour and class control, if there is a behaviour policy that is in place that the teacher tries to follow but when it gets to the point where Senior Management are involved and they don't do what they are supposed to by following up appropriately, then the children see that what should happen, doesn't and then the teachers are left not trusting the system or their bosses. Respect for Senior Management declines from children, staff and parents. Teachers are left having to deal with it in the classroom and maybe the dept as they know that going to the SMT is pointless. Under one HT, a child is excluded internally for swearing at a teacher, under another, if they apologise after causing no end of problem before even leaving the room, they expect the teacher to have them back in. What does this say to the other children. Isn't it funny that some HT have very sharp teeth for the staff but quite blunt when it comes to dealing with the outrageous behaviour from children and parents?

I am in despair to be honest. Yes crap teachers should be easy to get rid of as long as they have been supported properly to see of they are able to improve.

AAAAaaarrrrrrrrggggggggggggh. I am all cross again. There are so many unfair decisions made by the people who actually have the power. Who and what do they train HT because some one needs to look at the curriculum they use for HTs as it is lacking in my opinion. I am ranting and I don't care. Mr Gove, sort it out. Get you HTs sorted out and you'll see such a difference. I bloody hate this.

Probably lots going on long term sick because they have not been managed properly. Where they are pushed into a place due to unrealstic expectations from HTs who don't offer proper support but expect teachers and dept heads to just "know" what to do.
Teachers go on long term sick and then the HTs are left sorting out the repercussions rather than dealing with it properly in the first place. Bloody stressful when your manager is Mr Crapp.

It's taken me a week to calm down enought to sleep again and now I am mad again.

Exactly, Rooni.

Measures are already in place to sack any employee legally for poor performance. We don't need a bully's charter to help head teachers who see their school as a kind of personal fiefdom hound perfectly good teachers into early retirement, just for having the temerity to stand up to them, or, god forbid, be even better teachers than their seniors (and that does happen).

Rooni You are absolutely spot on and have saved me a job writing the exact same thing as you. Thanks .

Q by ASByatt earlier: 'I can't decide (not so much over this new stuff today, but the whole academies/free school malarkey) whether Gove is deliberately trying to destroy education, or whether he just doesn't realise what is it is that he is doing?'

The trouble is Master Michael Gove, Lower 3A's 'Education monitor' sits next to Master Andrew Lansley (the 'Health monitor') in class and they are SO inclined to copy each other and lead each other on! In his last report I remarked to Lansley's parents that I wasn't sure if his destruction of the NHS was deliberate or ignorant- but now it seems young Michael is being influenced, too.

I shall have to separate them.

LittenTree - brilliant!

Incompetence and excessive sick leave often go hand in hand. If a teacher is struggling they often go off sick. And, due to the system, they know to reappear periodically as the then clock resets and off they go again.

I recently went on a course on teacher recruitment (I'm a governor) and the LEA lawyer stated at the outset that it is virtually impossible to get rid of incompetent teachers. And it is actually impossible to get rid of a useless head teacher.

I have worked in several schools, but the worst case of management bullying I've seen was of a colleague who was type 1 diabetic. Due to an excessive workload and total lack of concern by her line managers she was unable to have breaks in her day to manage her condition (check blood sugar levels, eat regularly, take insulin at appropriate times). Consequently her behaviour became erratic to the point that students accused her of being drunk in class. The HT used this as an excuse to start competency proceedings against her, often taking up her breaktimes and lunchtimes with extra meetings at short notice (making the initial problem worse).

My colleague died within 6 months, at the early age of 45, from a heart attack probably brought on by stress as well as the complications of inadequately managed diabetes. As far as I am aware, the head teacher's career continues onwards and upwards...............

Luckily for me I have found another school.

I usually try to avoid a) debates about education and b) anything old Gove says on the basis that I am a teacher and I will get too annoyed but I had to chime in on this one, I couldn't resist.

I work 3 days a week, slogging my guts out and sometimes managing great lessons, most of the time managing satisfactory lessons. I have been teaching for 7 years. Most of my problems with getting the 'outstanding' box marking for my lessons results from the ever changing priorities of the observations i.e. OfSted and the Government. NOTHING has lasted more than one year since I have been a qualified teacher.

If teachers were allowed to get on and TEACH just for a little while, without some MP idiot coming along and sticking their oar in and changing things, just because they can, WE might actually get somewhere and be able to focus on our good practise and look at what our students genuinely need from us.

There are numerous incompetent teachers out there, and the repeated observations throughout the year that my school does (and I'm sure, many schools with good senior managment replicates), no doubt go a long way to identifying weaknesses in teaching and either supporting or dismissing the staff as needed. I don't think there are that many poor teachers or that many schools ignoring such bad teaching that there need be any further legislation or action. If the goalposts weren't constantly shifting, it might be easier to work out exactly WHO was failing and at WHAT!!

Education is the one area that everybody feels that can accurately comment on, because they've been to school and/or have children at school. However, until you actually walk a mile in a teacher's shoes, you probably don't have any idea exactly what its like.

As a final point, incompetance and sick pay do not necessarily go hand in hand. Long term sick pay should be considered an entirely separate issue, subject to numerous regulations and restrictions, and nothing to do with this new Government 'initiative'. There are other posts in the civil service that are also filled with long term sick employees I'm sure...

I am a teacher and will also put in my two pennies. Like other posters have said no one can understand teaching until they have done it. Just because someone went to school or has kids at school, doesn't mean that they can appreciate what being a teacher entails.

I work for a non-teacher head at the moment and pretty much all staff (apart from the favourites) consider him to be a complete prat, who has admitted to a member of staff that he likes to create a 'culture of fear among the staff'. A prat is the professional opinion, you should hear the unprofessional opinions in the pub! Gove is obviously showing the same disrespect towards teachers that comes from not actually ever having stood in front of a class but arrogantly believing they know the best way of doing it.

I have worked in other professions before becoming a teacher and the level of rubbish people in their job is less in teaching compared to the other professions. If you are a rubbish teacher, the kids will make your life a misery in the majority of cases. I don't believe that a geninuely bad teacher will carry on teaching - the pay is not good enough to justify how horrible the job can be if the kids have no respect for you. Also who decides who is a bad teacher? The kids can't be trusted most times, as they have a different criteria - fun, fun, fun is what they want. Parents? They often don't have unbiased opinions. Other teachers? The criteria of what makes a good lesson changes yearly.

'Bad' teachers need support. Also a reduction in the insane workload would help too. At my last school I was teaching 200 kids a week, including 6 exam classes. There was no way that I could help individual kids as much as I wanted to or plan the outstanding lessons or set and mark all the homework that needed to be done. If someone is stuggling anyway, this workload will just push them further under.

Teacher bashing is an easy way of appearing to tackle any problems in education. Has no one thought that kids pick up on this, which leads to more disrespect, which leads to more behaviour problem, which leads to more teachers being considered to be bad. A vicious circle.

Make Gove do a PGCE! See what he says after that.

' If a teacher is struggling they often go off sick. And, due to the system, they know to reappear periodically as the then clock resets and off they go again. '

I have never come across or heard of this situation of teachers going 'off sick' and then coming back to go 'off sick' again and have taught for 19 years in a variety of schools.

Indeed. And if this government - or any - actually cared about raising standards, they could reduce the number of families living in poverty rather than continually undermining teachers.

Gove talks about teachers as though they're some sort of nuisance in his plan to privatise education and enable his mates to make a profit out of our schools and children.

Which of course to him they are.

Regardless of the job this is completely ridiculous. There is quite enough law out there protecting staff from dodgy hr's and equally idiotic bosses. There is also quite enough law protecting firms from lazy/stupid staff. You do not need to relax anything, or indeed particularly improve it. Honestly. Do not mess. Its quite good, Ive sacked enough and kept enough to know in a blue chip!

What would be more useful is to break down the perception of people that HR in any profession works for anyone but the firm concerned (one of the most spectacular pieces of marketing since "diamonds are a girls best friend" in the 60's). HR are not your friends. They are the face of the legal team. Thats it.

No more tell them the truth than your best friend whose a 14 whose "wearing" a size 10.

Also, while Im ranting (spot the woman with a glass in hand!), in which other profession would someone completely unqualified (a parent and yes I know we are clever but we shouldn't be doing this) be suggested its a good idea that they sit next to someone else trying to do their job (a teacher)?

I know that most of these suggestions are touted by male politicians, but sweet mother of mary and joseph do you have to be so daft people? You wouldn't have the security guard advising the investment banker would you? (No, because we mightn't be in this mess had we eh? ;0).....oops do I contradict myself here....?)

I actually think it's really dangerous to correlate long-term sick leave with incompetence.

One of my most competent colleagues is on long-term sick leave at the moment. She is brilliant, passionate, committed and perfectionist. And burning out because she is trying to be all these things while there are family issues at play and when our jobs are under severe threat due to cuts, in the context of having a manager who just doesn't get that being asked to reduce her standards and do a lesser job is extremely stressful.

I would say in my experience long-term sickness often occurs in the best and the brightest in departments as frequently as it does among those who are incompetent. The generalisation that those "on the sick" are just lazy and incompetent and playing the system doesn't seem helpful to me.

Also, what if you have cancer or a long-term debilitating illness (including mental health)? Does that make you incompetent?

Placing an interest here - Gove has the sort of face I would never get sick of kicking. And for balance, I invest as much energy in trying to kick out his nasty little thoughts that get translated into 'policy and practice'.

Having said that, the analogy with the private sector works quite well. IF we are considering 'performance-related pay and sackings' we have a situation where RBS 'leaders' are STILL getting handsome pay and dividend from essentially fecking up the system for which they were/are responsible.

I am not against dealing effectively with 'poor performance' ( I do it from time to time in my professional role) BUT I do object fairly strongly to the myopic choosing of public sector workers for namingandshaming when, across the board in the private sector lack of ability is either ignored or explained away by 'external factors' - as if trying to educate members of poverty-blighted families isn't vulnerable to 'external factors'.

just read stillsquiffy re giving postive references for poor teachers. That is utter tosh, from your friend/source. My sister is a head mistress - she provides refs as she sees fit - only last week she mentioned such a difficulty re referencing a teacher who she liked personally but had reservations re her ability to teach a large class.

I just read this on the daily fail and honestly it makes my blood boil. If there are so many embittered, tired teachers, what does it say about their working conditions. Why not look to improve those instead of blaming and you will naturally attract the brightest and best, instead of all this "your all crap" nonsense and as for longer days and shorter holidays, I gave birth to actually SEE my children thanks, not just turn them into corporate drones as quickly as possible. Fuck off with your blame and mindless drivel.