Did I just hear this right? Is Michael Gove blaming bullying on teachers and sayng the answer is to be able to sack them more easily?

[OhBuggerandArse]

On Today just now.

Oh how I loathe him.

I remember one thing about Gove. When he first got into the job (got into power!) he started going on about the holidays being too long. I thought eh? as the 'long' summer holidays are 5-6 weeks (nothing compared to most of europe). Of course he was thinking about the public school system with their couple of months and how teachers can double up as babysitters. I realised then that he was no friend of teachers and probably a prize prat.

The guy is a loon, but he is a clever one. He is basically using divide and conquer in the same way that his party have done for the whole of their leadership so far.

I have been teaching for 4 years, including my NQT, and I can share some things that I have learnt:

Firstly, the WORST teacher I ever met was in a private school. He arrived with a fantastic reference from another private school and they apparently couldn't get rid of him. However, the second worst teacher I knew (who was actually very good in the classroom but had an issue with marking) was in a state school and he was got rid of within 6 months of problems developing.

Where teachers have struggled with behaviour it has almost always been due to a lack of support by the senior staff. When behaviour problems occur, perhaps due to a bad mixture of students in a class, the 'rumour' spreads amongst the kids that a teacher is 'soft' and it also spreads to parents. So it begins. The management don't punish the students they punish the teacher. The cycle continues.

Behaviour is definitely a management issue - I have done placements in a whole range of schools, from deprived areas to a private school and the cycle above is always true, unless a good behaviour management policy exists. When it doesn't, you can forget how good the teachers are, go somewhere else!

soverylucky - yes indeed, I agree with your picture of the future a la Gove, no LAs, no national pay scales or agreements wrt PPA time or holidays or conditions etc. I think that school will be staffed by a cycle of NQTs who are appointed because they are cheap, burn out within 5 years (what's the current drop out rate?) and then retreat from the classroom.

How is this progress or proritising the future of our pupils?

I am a teacher, just in my NQT year. I've come to teaching with 15 years experience in management (and sports coaching) previously. The government promises career changes a good salary. In reality, I'm on the same low level of base level pay as all the 22 yr old kids with no experience. I am astounded at the sheer level of incompetence in the education system as a whole. I have to put it down to the fact that the majority of teachers, and head teachers, have never actually had a real job, in the real world. Money is wasted left, right and centre. Time is wasted. Resources are wasted. Management do not deal with behaviour management because they basically don't the skills to face confrontation. As they can't address this, the chances of them dealing with incompetence is unlikely. I'm working bloody hard to teach my kids, who received zero education last year from a 'senior' member of staff (crap teacher, on top whack pay) Until the government makes it mandatory for the minimum age to be a teacher to be, say 28, education will continue to be run by people who have never had any training in anything other than subject matter. Lots of people go into teacher at 21 because they 'can't think of anything else to do' (or they don't want to waste their degree). Frankly, not good enough.
A lot of teachers are excellent and work damn hard for their kids. However, there will always be plenty of rubbish teachers about getting away with murder due to soft management. Personally, as and when I'm a HT, I will be sweeping away cobwebs like crazy!

* excuse typos touch phone not that friendly!*

I agree with kitesurfgirl that many teachers have no clue whatsoever of the standards of management that are commonplace in the business sector, and no concept of accountability.

The only people who would have a issue with this is a bad teacher, why would other teachers have a issue with this a bad work mate only makes your life harder

As a parents why would you want a incompetant teaching your child

As a school why would you not want to know why the teacher you may hire left their old school under a cloud

And most importantly as a CHILD why would you not want the best teacher the adults around you can provide

And as for who removes bad head why teachers of course their have been cases were teachers have effectively staged a coo and ousted a bad head and I do feel ofsted have many faults but are good out weeding out bad leadership from bad underlings

Hmmm maypole..if only the same rule was being applied across all sectors of productive society, as I had alluded to earlier.

When I was a teacher,t he children behaved badly because I was shit at teaching. It wasn't my manager or the department head's fault, 'twas me own.

I tend to agree though with an earlier poster that the teaching profession my be more self-regulating than others - if you're not suited to it, nothing could be worse. I WISH I could teach - our life would be better, I can tell you that. I would love to have a similar schedule to DH.

DH has been a teacher in the UK for 20 years, he's a senior deputy now. We have loads of teacher friends and I was always amazed in the past when they resisted calls for performance reviews. I did have people say that somehow teachign is 'different' which I don't agree with. I should have had one as a teacher (and been sacked on the spot - I taught English abroad in a country with not enough Egnlish teachers, hence I was safe.) It seems like now, the performance reviews are happening and are more regular though. It doesn't seem to me from speaking with DH that it is quite as difficult as it was to dismiss someone on capability grounds.

I agree with Chicken earlier on as well - I feel like for DH the goal posts via Ofsted are always changing and there is always some MP making a bid for party leadership (and sorry, but Labour were just as guilty of this) tinkering around with the system in some way to 'make an impact.' Usually for the worse - if only because the added effort required/change is a distraction and pointless, even if the suggestion isn't outright pernicious.

Why are they picking on teachers though. Why not the performance of other publc sectar workers - why teachers?

My oh mate is a teacher lord help us and is really bad he is a stand in teacher an often jokes on line about the students

He has brought good work stamps on line and stamps every ones work with this one stamp says it save about 2 hours every evening and then theirs more drinking time.

He's gone straight to class from a club before sleeping in his car near the school and changing in the loos

He has not managed to get a full time post since he qualified but lord help the children when he dose

I guess because Gove is Education secretary he PERSONALLY decided to address that...

Animation this is why

as official figures showed that just 18 had been struck off for incompetence in the past 40 years.

If you look at another sector the police,nurseing,doctors, firemen the army this is not the case if your shit your out but unlike the others this either means that teachers are unusually good or their is somthing fishy going on.

I very much doubut their are in 40 years have only been 18 shit teachers

"Can we please go into the MP's offices and the House and watch them, and if they are incapable, sack them within a term?"

Exactly!!

many teachers have no clue whatsoever of the standards of management that are commonplace in the business sector, and no concept of accountability. Aside from the fact that many teachers do come to teaching following a stint in another career, why would knowledge of practices common in the business sector be of value to the 'average' classroom teacher?

No concept of accountability - that is a joke. Results, particularly those magic 'C' grades, are all that anyone cares about. If you think teachers can sail on by with no one noticing their results, or holding them to account for them, then you clearly know very little about the profession as it is nowadays.

maypole - can I ask what is your profession??

AntlersInAllOfMyDecorating mps can be "sacked" when either a by election is held or on election night

Teachers hold to an important job to stay in it when not up to the job

Teachers are much more important than mps their for if their shit they need to be ousted

and "shit" police? Not being defended and hidden? You are kidding.

The police is the most corrupt, defended, sick-laden, incompetent bunch of workers known to western civilisation!
FYI.

Panfriedstardust one in which I can be sacked if I am not doing a good job and far quicker than a term
Also one in which if I apply for the same job else were the new employer WILL be notified and I would not be allowed to leave under a dark cloud to continue on.

so maypole, what is your profession?