So the verdict on the riots is in

[RyokoTheRedNosedLamedear]

Police should be able to use all means next time including live ammo.

Excuse me? so after the riots that where sparked by the shooting of an unarmed man, the toffs in charge of the review think it's a good idea for the police to shoot all those unruly serfs, should they dare do it again.

The day the police shoot a rioter will be the dawn of the revolution, when this system is smashed and the politicians dragged from their beds and lynched in the streets.

I do think on the whole tho the police have more sense then to do what we condemn so many others for doing.

Welcome to fucking Syria.

Who gave the verdict? And what is 'live ammo' anyway? Doesn't have to mean bullets

when I heard it, the person was saying "live ammunition on arsonists who are setting light to a building with people inside, when they can't be stopped any other way"

he didn't say "rioters who are looting the ELC"

I suppose if a criminal is attempting to kill people by burning them to death, he could reasonably be treated as harshly as if he was trying to kill them with a knife or gun.

There was a NI politician making the point that plastic bullets tend to get people more worked up.

How do you know if there are people inside?

during the riots they where setting fire to the shops after looting to destroy evidence of fingerprints etc, the people where living in the flats above, if those people are not hanging out the windows shouting before the building is torched how are you to know if there is anyone in there or not.

And more importantly Police should not be executing people on the spot.

Heres an idea hows about not pissing people off with the disgusting imbalance of wealth and power in this country in the first place, hows about not taking peoples money/benefits away at a time when jobs are few and far between and not just using the stock answer of get off your arse and get a job, every time the plight of the poor is highlighted.

or failing that stop talking shit about bullets be they live, bean bag or rubber and water canons, all tactics used against crowds determined to make a stand in an area, not people spread out across a city in small flash mobs and instead just issue stun guns of the type that fire darts over a distance from a replaceable cartridge and more pepper spray.

How do you know if there are people inside?

during the riots they where setting fire to the shops after looting to destroy evidence of fingerprints etc, the people where living in the flats above, if those people are not hanging out the windows shouting before the building is torched how are you to know if there is anyone in there or not.

I guess if it was me I probably wouldn't set light to it unless I was in some way sure there were no people.

No, that's not true.

I've never set light to a building I've just looted. Have you?

It's all very well saying what ever now, but in the heat of the moment when mob rule takes hold many things go out the window so to speak.

Police shouldn't be shooting people dead full stop, incapacitate, arrest and trial yes, shoot to kill no, never.

rioters shouldn't be looting and setting fire to buildings, full stop.

You do agree, don't you?

Depends on the building in question, I can definitely think of a few I'd like to see go up in flames.

Sending police into an area of civil unrest armed with live ammo is just an excuse to arm the law.

RyokoTheRedNosedLamedear
Depends on the building in question, I can definitely think of a few I'd like to see go up in flames

OK, so you're not opposed in principle to looting and arson

Are there a few people you'd like to see shot, as well?

apparently not rioters they are Always In The Right.

don't you think it's a bit disingenuous to suggest 'they' recommend shooting rioters when 'they' actually recommended use of live ammunition as a last resort to prevent loss of innocent life, ryoko?

i think you might be a little over-excited.

go and have a lie down. you wouldn't want to do something you might regret, eh?

i should add, i haven't even seen or read the recommendations, but now i don't need to. your frothing berserkery has made me certain that 'they' are the sane and sesible ones.

i'm guessing that wasn't your intention though.

careful, you'll end up with some sort of incitement gig.

it's not looting if the people paid for it in the first place, no I'd like to see people spend time behind bars, such as Tony Blair for starting Illegal wars for example.

Do you honestly think there is any time at all short of a foreign invasion when it would be acceptable to shoot people on the streets?.

if you were running around the streets with a knife, threatening to attack people; or a gun; or a bucket of petrol, then yes, it might be an option worth considering.

pizzatheaction my patronising metre just exploded thanks to you.

why don't you go and have a cup of tea dear and do try to wipe that smug look off your face.

The main verdict is that the riots spread because the police didn't gain control of the original incident, were seen as weak and therefore others saw it as an opportunity to have a go and get some free gear. It was sheer weight of police numbers in the end that brought the problem under control rather than weapons or vehicles. And by then, five people had died. One man beaten to death in Ealing, another shot in Croydon, plus Shazad Ali, Abdul Mussavir and Haroon Jahan in Birmingham mown down by a car... and many others were made homeless or their livelihoods ruined. I think it's important we give police chiefs support to make the right decisions and, above all, the confidence that they can engage violent criminals with all appropriate means.

Feeling hard done by is no excuse for violent behaviour.

I rarely link to the Guardian but thought this explained it nicely.

I don't think we are talking about gunning down protestors, or that the measures make the UK comparable with Syria really.

ta.
haven't you got a placard to be waving or something? real action must be far more satisfying than bleating on mn.

So you all think everyone will just accept police shooting rioters and it will not make matters worse?.

just as people accepted them shooting Mark Duggan.... oh wait a minute.

i'd rather they weren't trying to murder innocent bystanders by torching buildings at all tbh. then no need for them to be shot at all.

everyone lives happily ever after, and all that jazz.

oh, of course. i'd totally forgotten that every single out of control rioter was really genuinely demonstrating about police brutality, and not taking advantage of a bit of unrest to break the law and get a bit of an adrenaline high and a few tvs.

silly me. tsk.

I live in Ealing, when I went out the day after what I noticed was all the things the TV didn't report on, yes a few shops round the green and bond street got smashed into but, the banks took a bigger beating and the houses.

There are streets of houses here worth half a mil plus, I found it interesting to note that only the ones that looked the most fancy single occupancy ones had smashed windows, not the ones that look a bit shit or have been converted into multiple flats, and the cars that had there windows smashed where all the Jags, newer Mercs, Hummers etc, all the little hatchbacks and the Fords etc where left intact.

Don't believe everything the news tells you, there where many people out over those days for many different reasons, to tar everyone with the same brush is stupid and extremely short sighted, people are angry and it will happen again if the blame is just put on a few spoiled kids out to get free TV's.

i don't doubt it. but that doesn't excuse it, tbh. that pretty much renders it sour grapes.

there was no way for the rioters to tell if they were smashing up or burning to the ground the property of a smug banker or a family business that had been built up from scratch through sweat and tears. and they did not care either way.

as the police aren't going to have the powers to shoot the poor little innocents who are out nicking tvs it matters not. but people who endangering life need to be stopped one way or another. and the nice folk at home hoiking thier bosoms wouldn't be terribly impressed with a policeman who didn't stop the idiot with a petrol bomb. it'll be all 'call in the army' again.

damned if you do, damned if you don't.

but you'll have to work extremely hard to convince me that anyone who was rioting was in the right. whether the police had made a mistake or not.

i know a lot of people who spend a great deal of time demonstrating. and i fully support them. but they don't torch stuff just because they get a bit cross. they are some of the most committed demonstrators and are pretty much at it 24/7. i respect them enormously even if i don't always agree 100% with the cause/s. and they are no strangers to police intimidation etc. but they (largely) don't stoop to law breaking and violence. they know exactly what the law says, and plan around it (ok, with a bit of a massage here and there, but not to endanger life or smash stuff up for fun) very carefully. and the police behaviour is documented v carefully.

there is absolutely no excuse for violence and destruction. none.

So it's OK to smash up smart houses and nice cars because you're 'angry'.... and the police aren't supposed to stop that happening? Wasn't Ealing where a pensioner was beaten to death for trying to put out a fire? The reason skanky flats and hatchbacks weren't targeted is because there's nothing worth nicking. I think your description of 'extremely stupid and short-sighted' applies mostly to yourself Ryoko. And add 'delusional' to it as well.

Oooh cogito and also the family that had to run for their lives from their humble home and put their baby in the back of the car and then the rioters threatened to burn the car with the baby in it.

OP - do you think it's OK to burn people alive in their homes in the vain hope you might get a rich one? A rich one has obviously made their pile from the suffering of the 'surfs' eh?

Oh yes and a new kid at school - just moved after the riots -why? because they were burnt out of their humble flat above a shop. This kid has nothing 6 months on.

Were they really meant to give the rioters some sign 'oh I know you want to erase the trace of your fucking fingerprints for stealing but please, please don't burn us alive as we live above this horrible capitalist £1 shop run by struggling immigrants' or run for their fecking lives with small kids. OP - this family has seen your post and are gobsmacked.

They were jeered at as they staggered out. New kid still has nothing as it was all burnt along with their home.

Oh and lots of people I know were people struggling and from immigrant families from countries we would pity. But they pity us for our behaviour. Shame on this country.

What an offensive post OP - I'm a londoner for generations with family from far flung places in the world thrown in. You make us ashamed of our country and city.

You are convinced that people trying to erase traces of their thieving criminality take priority over people who are being burnt alive in their homes.

Think about it.

When the people are angry at the lack of opportunities, poverty pay, being constantly demonised and insulted because of how they dress, how old they are, where they live/social class, being fleeced left right and centre by landlords and the government and so on.

The last thing you do when the streets are full of rage and alienation is insight more.

but then the Tories are in power so we will have no fairness, no solidarity in this hard time just a sustained kicking to the lowest while the rich are left untouched until the next general election or the next round of unrest.

And as I said if more unrest occurs and the police shoot someone dead, expect all hell to break loose, you are extremely misguided if you think such heavy handedness would stop people, it would inflame things.

I've lived in London all my life, I come from a council estate my family have lived in the London area for the last 300 odd years.