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Original poster

So sad to hear another father has killed his wife and child

301 replies

spongefingeranyone · 09/12/2011 13:35

Have heard on the news today that a recently sacked police officer has killed his wife and youngest child, with the eldest two escaping with dreadful injuries. It just makes me so sad for his family and very very angry that another father has seen fit to do this terrible thing.

My condolences to the family.

OP posts:
sitandnatter · 12/12/2011 18:59

Yes Feenie originally reported as a dangerous gaseous leak but now it is a murder enquiry and no one else is being sought in connection. Barstewards or barstewardess who ever did it. Leave the kids alone, they have their lives in front of them. Top yourself if you must but killing your family. I just don't get it.

Feenie · 12/12/2011 18:59

Me neither Sad

larrygrylls · 12/12/2011 19:57

Natural means as nature intended, not acceptable, not morally right. Most criminal behaviours are natural, and that is why you will never stamp out theft, for instance, by changing society. It is natural to take what you want if you can. A good moral upbringing plus an appropriate punishment code modifies our natural behaviours, it does not mean they are not natural.

I do find it quite amusing that the fact I say something is natural is taken to mean I approve of it or defend it. I am relatively well off and not especially big, so I am not a big fan of mugging. However, I would never claim it was not a natural behaviour. It is equally natural to pick on anyone who is "other". I am of Jewish descent living in an Anglo Saxon country. Anti Semitism (or any form of tribalism) is totally natural. Again that is why I approve of strong morals and strong laws to back them up.

But, if you would like to assume that I believe "natural" ="reasonable, good", then go ahead, you can call me a Male Rape Apologist. Sticks and stones may break my bones but words, especially by strangers on an internet forum, will certainly never hurt me.

ElfenorRathbone · 12/12/2011 20:27

I would take issue with your assumption that certain things are natural. Why should taking someone's belongings by force, be considered more natural than pooling resources? Why should beating up smaller, physically weaker members of the group, rather than protecting them, be considered natural? Why should killing members of your species on an industrial scale, be considered natural?

Why do you assume that your perceptions of natural, are the correct ones?

JingleBelleDameSansMerci · 12/12/2011 20:39

Not sure why I'm posting this. Perhaps because it's so prevalent. It makes me so bloody angry and no-one, no-one at all seems to be able to stop it.

ElfenorRathbone · 12/12/2011 21:16

It's not that they can't stop it.

It's that they don't want to.

Women and children's safety and dignity, simply aren't as important as men's entitlement. Until we get a critical mass of women in power, who actually give a shit about us and assume that women and children aren't just expendable for the real human beings, this will continue to be tolerated and people will continue to pretend that all these men are just random nutters unconnected by their assumptions and attitudes.

JingleBelleDameSansMerci · 12/12/2011 21:21

Yes, that's true. And even worse.

demetersdaughter · 12/12/2011 22:21

I've heard it all now.

Women can stop murders and men can't.

Anyone reading that claim should have coffee/tea spurting out of their nose.

Beachcomber · 12/12/2011 22:42

I'm afraid I think evopsych is a load of utter twaddle so all this 'apes do it too/rape is natural/fighting over women is natural/war is natural' business just makes me feel kind of sick really.

The argument that boys need special treatment and role models otherwise they will revert to 'natural' character and do rapey apey things, is just awful.

BelleDame that article is fucking terrible. 'defence wounds' really got to me Sad

Beachcomber · 12/12/2011 22:50

Yeah, it's a laugh a fucking minute this thread, isn't it demetersdaughter? Hmm

The claim, you claim has been made, was not what the poster in question is saying BTW.

ElfenorRathbone · 12/12/2011 22:52

demetersdaughter, you're either reading a different thread to me, or you're just reading this one with your "feminists think this, so that's what they must be saying" glasses on.

It's quite difficult to have a discussion with someone who is arguing against positions no-one has taken. So I won't try.

demetersdaughter · 12/12/2011 23:05

ElfenorRathbone Mon 12-Dec-11 21:16:12
It's not that they can't stop it

It's that they don't want to

Women and children's safety and dignity, simply aren't as important as men's entitlement. Until we get a critical mass of women in power , who actually give a shit about us and assume that women and children aren't just expendable for the real human beings, this will continue to be tolerated and people will continue to pretend that all these men are just random nutters unconnected by their assumptions and attitudes.

---------

Your whole argument revolves round man blaming.

We have proved that just as many women kill children as men do (Some evidence suggests women kill more) yet you still refute anything that doesn't fit into your gender biased agenda.

Women can stop murders because men dont want to?

Incredible statement and one to laugh at.

You lot should be ashamed of yourselves for hijacking a thread like this.

ElfenorRathbone · 12/12/2011 23:44

The argument I am proposing, is that a critical mass of women in power, means that the issues around violence against women, are actually dealt with seriously.

So for example the reason that prostitution is being dealt with properly in Scandinavian countries, is because a good proportion of elected representatives, are women. So they take the abuse of women seriously, becasue they know that women are real human beings, who matter.

The subject of women killing children has already been discussed on this thread and you have ignored the discussion as it doesn't fit in with your worldview. I can't be bothered to repeat arguments that have already been made and ignored by you.

demetersdaughter · 12/12/2011 23:53

And you stated that men can't stop this variant of murder because they don't want to?
Which tells us that you believe men can actually stop this murder?

I quoted American sources on this thread and was pulled up for doing so, but you're quoting vague Scandinavian sources/myths.

The subject of women killing children has been ignored and you and others have chosen to just blame men for killing children.

I've posted links to the facts showing women are as much culpable as men and that it's a human problem.

This thread wasn't about a world view it was about a tragic event which has been hijacked by conspiracy theorists.

ElfenorRathbone · 12/12/2011 23:58

And yeah, interesting that you want to laugh at the idea that men in power aren't interested in stopping the murder of women.

Every single expert organisation out there , from Women's Aid to the educated parts of the Police Force, understands that Domestic Violence is absolutely related to the murder of women. Everyone knows this. They tell the government this. And still the men in power do nothing to properly tackle DV. How am I supposed to conclude that they give a shit about women being murdered, when 2 a week are murdered, everyone who is involved and knows about it, is telling them why and they do FA about it? Does that sound like they care? Tolerating that level of murder and violence against women (25% living with DV), and doing nothign about it? That's a signal that they're sitting there desperately trying to come up with a solution is it?

demetersdaughter · 13/12/2011 00:07

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

olivestanssister · 13/12/2011 00:47

This thread was sad but now it's become a joke.
A family are in mourning and some internet clique decide to want to score points for a lost cause.
Shameful it is.

SardineQueen · 13/12/2011 07:46

demetersdaughter what are you talking about?

A lot of people have addressed the fact that women kill children, time and time again on this thread. Your figures have also been called into question but you have not posted anything further to back up your claims. You deny that there is a problem with the people in power (mainly men) not really being interested in helping women and children - you say this even though presumably you know the situation with DV, rape and stalking in relation to our police forces ie that rape is under-reported and mishandled, that there are institutional problems in the forces with rape myths and that cases like women being sent to prison for being scared of violent partners with their children then handed to said violent partner.

You are not reading what people are actually writing and are instead just responding to what you think people are saying. You think there are no gendered problems with violence in this country? You think women commit as much violent crime as men, that they commit family annihilation with the same frequency, that women are killing their partners at the rate of two a week? Presumably you want rape and DV charities aimed specifically at women shut down as they are sexist.

I cant understand your attitude, all of the facts and figures point to a different story.

SardineQueen · 13/12/2011 07:47

And as for you Larry, your ideas about human nature paint a very depressing picture and say more about you than anything else TBH. believe it or not, most people in the world do not actually want to steal, beat, rob, rape and murder. Shocking, I'm sure, but true.

SardineQueen · 13/12/2011 07:49

A lost cause? Wanting violence against women and children to be taken seriously / reduced / stopped? Yes a lot of people think it is but I for one am not going to just accept it like that.

WidowWadman · 13/12/2011 08:06

SardineQueen

So Larry's view is depressing and unrealistic whilst Elfenor's "Men in Power don't want to stop the killing of women" isn't?

SardineQueen · 13/12/2011 08:07

Read the reports about the police handling of DV and rape cases and see for yourself.

larrygrylls · 13/12/2011 09:20

There is an extreme feminist fantasy whereby all human beings are born good until they are corrupted by this vague hive mind called the Patriarchy. It is utopian in the extreme and pretty close to Scientology in that if all us men underwent reprogramming, we might just come closer to the "ideal man" who could never hurt a fly.

There is also, and I find this most bizarre, the concept that all men, however they live their lives, need to take collective responsibility for any men who behave badly. It is the a feminist version of the Salem witch trials. If you are a man and other men do wrong, you are not "taking responsibility" for the Patriarchy. Clearly, as neither I, nor any other man, can stop random strangers perpetrating evil acts, we are hanged for supporting the Patriarchy (termed male rape apologists, dudes etc). I think it genuinely sad that quite a few boys are being brought up to have a collective guilt about who they are.

I think my view, which is shared, I would say, by 95%+ of the population, both male and female, is that people are shaped both genetically and environmentally. Most people are neither born saints nor sinners. Some genetically have a prediliction towards one end of the spectrum or the other. Upbringing and role models will then determine who someone finally becomes. We are not apes but I really don't think we are as far from apes as some would idealistically believe.

SardineQueen · 13/12/2011 09:29

"It is utopian in the extreme and pretty close to Scientology in that if all us men underwent reprogramming, we might just come closer to the "ideal man" who could never hurt a fly."

But most men do live their lives without being violent.

I just can't see why that is so hard for you to understand.

It is not natural or normal for people (men or women) to want to hurt, main, torture, rape, murder others. It just isn't. Really. I know lots of people who don't feel that way at all. Honestly, I do.

SardineQueen · 13/12/2011 09:33

"Clearly, as neither I, nor any other man, can stop random strangers perpetrating evil acts,"

What do you think the police are there for? Social services? There are mechanisms in place and people whose job it is to try and prevent people perpetrating evil acts.