So sad to hear another father has killed his wife and child

[spongefingeranyone]

Have heard on the news today that a recently sacked police officer has killed his wife and youngest child, with the eldest two escaping with dreadful injuries. It just makes me so sad for his family and very very angry that another father has seen fit to do this terrible thing.

My condolences to the family.

So now you seem to be saying that men are "naturally" predisposed to violence due to their hormones?

That's an appalling thing to think.

And larry of course it's not OK when women kill their children I didn't say that anywhere.

If you want to include men who kill children in this conversation as well - rather than the specific family annihilation situation - you are going to find a lot of men doing that too, I'm afraid.

Larry are you arguing that beating one's wife and kids* is an expression of 'natural human behaviour'?

*delete to add your preferred example of male violence.

There seems to be a reticence to accept that men are responsible for most violent crime in the UK, whatever form that violent crime takes.

I find that a little strange, to say the least.

If people won't even accept that it's mainly men doing the violence, then how on earth can we ever hope to understand and tackle it?

Infanticide is another gendered issue.

I know this is not very relevant to the thread but it felt wrong not to mention it. I can't help but think of this injustice when the subject of infanticide comes up .

I take it you mean that the "missing" children are all girls, rather than to do with the sex of the people who decided on abortion, killed the newborn or failed to feed the child.

Yes.

Awful story. I still remember reading an awful story along simelar lines where the father called the mother while killing each of her 4 sons in his car. Horrific.

demeter- why dont you use UK sources to 'validate' your arguments?
The laws about murder/homicide/manslaughter are very different especially the way that infanticide is recorded so it is useless to extrapolate US data to a UK context.

Your sources dont even back up your argument- it clearly says that a good proportion of women who get convicted for child murder were jointly convicted with a man, usually a partner. Or are you just going to ignore this because it doesnt fit with your tunnel vision version of these events?

Beach,

Beating one's wife and children is not a natural example of human behaviour. What higher mammal does either? However, rape, for example, and fighting over women, are absolutely natural. To see what is natural, one only needs to look at how the great apes behave or to read "the selfish gene". Assuming, of course, that you are an evolutionist. I can see why creationists may take a different view.

However, as human beings, we have advanced beyond doing purely what is natural and have a set of morals and laws to enshrine what we believe is the right way to behave. But, to deny that there is a part of our brain with animal impulses would be to misunderstand what we are as a species. What I am arguing is that, especially when bringing up boys, you need to work with the part of them which is male ape in order to make them happy, functioning units within human society. It is in sublimating our natural urges and teaching our children to do the same that we go beyond the other great apes. That, to me, is where having a strong positive male role model helps boys grow into responsible adults who will and could never indulge in any of the list of harmful behaviours that we are talking about.

Aubergine,

Funnily enough, my wife also frequently refers to our children as "my" children. Our children are both my children and her children. It is a simple consequence of how pronouns work in the english language. "My" and "her" (in this case) are subsets of "our". Not sure where "ours" comes into it. That is a different part of speech altogether.

It takes a really hateful mind to go from the use of "my" to the fact that I see my children as my possessions and then to compare me to a family annihilator. If I could be arsed, I would report your post as it is really vile. However, I cannot and prefer to let it stand as an example of how some people will go to any length to make a point.

Very sadly, here is another from today...

Just seen the awful Leeds murders were posted earlier...

I don't think I can face the argument around this one but "rape is natural"? Really? Because some animal species have what appears to be non-consensual sex, the same behaviour in humans is natural - even though it's all about power (and inadequacy) and control and not sex? Struggling with that a bit.

Unfortunately I cannot read the paper using your link. But any scientific paper which uses the word "political" is not science any meaning of the word that I understand. From your extract, this is clearly a sociological rather than a scientific study.

Saying something is natural does not excuse it. Wars are entirely natural. That does not make them desirable. It is interesting that, in your extract above, the clearest biological argument about all sex (genetic propagation) is ignored. In evolutionary terms, whether sex is enjoyed or not is only relevant in encouraging genetic propagation. Ask a male black widow spider about how it was it for him (ideally before the female pops him into her mouth).

Fortunately I had strong male and female role models when I was growing up so I am not "rapey", thanks very much.

Generally speaking, I think anyone who resorts to ad hominem attacks whilst discussing their views on a subject lacks the knowledge and critical thinking to engage with the issues themselves.

Right.

So wars, rape and beating up your wife and children is natural male behavioru is it?

Not learned, but natural. Inherent, presumably.

You sound like a real man-hater Larry.

Man-hater AND my first potential supporter of Tazers in girl's Bounty packs. Level the playing field from the off. You in, Larry?

But animals do all sorts of weird shit. Cannibalism anyone? You don't get people saying "oh that Jeffrey Dahmer - he was just doing what comes naturally - of course it wasn't the sort of behaviour we're that keen on - but you can't really blame a chap". Yet strangely when rape comes up apparently it's "natural".

Atrocious.

great apes murder and consume their young

So if this man had eaten his children, rather than just killing them, that would have been a natural act?

Righto.

Has anyone seen that there has been another apparent murder-suicide family case today in Pudsey, Leeds?