People feeling under pressure to wear a poppy.

[schroeder]

Yesterday on the bbc news a very interesting conversation about the increasing pressure people feel to wear a poppy seemed about to start, but was cut short. It was something to do with football shirts I think.

I feel this is a conversation that should be had. I work with the public and feel uncomfortable every year when it is expected of me to wear one.

It's not the wearing so much that bothers me, but that in doing so I am supporting a charity I would not support otherwise.
Surely we should not all feel forced to give to this charity whether we like it or not?
I do not think even the British legion woud want poppies to be compulsary?

lissielou:

All the emergency services are honoured on Remembrance Sunday alongside the soldiers and civilians who have been touched by war. This is not only on account of those who who played their part during the Wars but also for those who are injured or killed in the line of duty to their country nowadays. It is about honouring, respecting and remembering that they risk their lives in the name of duty to their country. Wreaths are laid on the cenotaph by representatives of each emergency service.

Thank you pink. That aspect isn't widely known though, is it? I certainly only associate poppies with the military. What of the point re people who dig out the same poppy year after year? Is it the support that counts, or the symbol?

I spoke to my db earlier, and mentioned this thread. Asked him if my not wearing a poppy bothered him. He said it was my choice and he understood my point of view. I'm very proud of him.

There's no reason why that aspect shouldn't be widely known - the BBC shows the Cenotaph march past (both live and highlights) with a good commentary.

The emergency services are all represented, as is London Transport, evacuees organisations, Bevan Boys, the Salvation Army, Toc-H, animal charities, the Shot At Dawn Association; and the amazingly dignified War Widows' association.

" I don't quite understand though why it needs to be such a big event, and why we need to give so much to remember those who died in the wars. "

I think this remark demonstrates how far removed we are in 2011 from the realities of both world wars. My father was in the RAF during the war and my mother was with the Free French. I still have her" France Libre" badge and will treasure it. My mother was in London during the blitz and couldn't watch war films or war documentaries on TV even many years afterwards - the sound of an air raid siren made her blood run cold.

I was born 13 years after the war ended and Remembrance Sunday was always a big thing in our house. When I was a Brownie and Guide we always had church parade on Remembrance Sunday, and as a Sea Ranger when I was a teenager we took part in a larger parade in town.

So, I buy a poppy, not because I want to appear generous, but because I want to. (I don't always remember to wear it though)

i was a member of the salvation army, and remember taking part in marches. but the emphasis is most definitely on the armed forces. plus, how many people do you know who watch the full coverage? and understand every step. I always assumed that the various emergency service wreaths etc, were a sign of respect from them to the forces. not in memory of "their own" (not explaining myself well, Im afraid) I've learnt something new today.

"I always assumed that the various emergency service wreaths etc, were a sign of respect from them to the forces. not in memory of "their own" "

It's a bit of both, really. A mark of respect for fallen comrades - from both military and civilian services as well as recognition of the part played by the police/fire serve et al during wartime (particularly WWII).

I have family who were fought in WW1 and the poppy doesn't represent them.

My father's cousin was invalided out of ww1 only to be murdered back home in Ireland after the war by the black + tans who were notorious for attacking civilians and who were ironically fellow ex ww1 veterans recruited in Britain. They were responsible for ferocious atrocities against civilians in Ireland.

I don't know if he was heroic or not, but I know those who murdered him certainly weren't. He wasn't a casualty either. He was a sitting duck.

Britain in WW1 was happy to fight oppression while occupying many other territories at the same time. Little Belgium whose defence it went to had a nice little gig going on in the Congo as well.

My grandad's cousin was with the American army in WW1 and was killed.

I guess there were many on all sides who were equally as patriotic when their country called them to fight in it's interests.

Were they all fighting for freedom? Whose freedom?

Does the poppy represent my father's cousin who fought with the British Army against other combatants in WW1? Does it also honour the black and tans who murdered him, an unarmed invalid civilian.

As for WW2. Of course everyone is happy fascism was defeated. How ironic those who are basically glorifying militarism keep going on about defeating fascism. Thankfully Britain's interests (and others) coincided with it's destruction as Hitler expanded. Also the millions and millions of lives lost by the Russians and America becoming involved. But don't try to depict all army personnel and excursions into wars as battles of the righteous in the pursuit of freedom.

Maybe the military is a necessary evil for protection, we're not so far from the jungle really, but don't depict it's motives as pure as snow white.

Interests are not the same as honour. Luckily, they do sometimes coincide.

Um, would someone tell me why my post was deleted? and also, why MN didn't tell me? It's a good 16 hours since I wrote it, so I dont' remember exactly what I said, except that someone was patronising me and being rude, in the guise of being a more sympathetic person....

What the hell did I say? I'm astonished.

I'm going to check what else was deleted (or at least where the gaps are).

Mm.. well I'm none the wiser. As far as I remember Juggle was being "nice" which of course depends on the context in which you read her posts.

i did say I thought people were being dense, and I was exaperated, because it felt as if I was having this kind of conversation:

"I don't like bananas"
"the answer is 2x4"

It felt as if those responding were purposefully missing my point, or the further content of my postings.

Of course, context is impossible to read if you just read for reporting reasons, and if I hurt Juggles feeling then I would like to say I'm sorry, but she did it first . I also can't be sorry when she was being smug, annoying and condescending. hung for a sheep and all that....

Good job I didn't report all the postings that I felt belittled my experience, my father's experience, and that of my grandfather. I would've wasted even more sleep.

Anyway, given the liberal and illiberal use of deletion I'm off. No point in going to flounces corner, no one will really care. But I will. Cheers, CY and others for your various supporting comments, and all the support from those who saw me through the dark hours that resulted from my family's dealing with war-fallout.

We had a very similar thread to this last year, I seem to remember it focussing more around white poppies and eventually I was accused of using the Nuremberg Defence...

Hm.

I have always worn a poppy

I don't now.

I have always worn one because I was brought up to believe they meant 'never again'.

I feel more and more uncomfortable about the way that wearing a poppy is now about supporting 'Our Brave Lads' or 'Our Boys' in Iraq and Afghanistan. I see the politicians who sent them there in the first place wearing poppies and it makes me sick. It no longer feels apolitical or impartial to me. It is getting perilously close to being hijacked.

Can I add to the above that it breaks my heart that I feel this way. I have always gone to dawn services and will continue to do so. but for me the poppy cause is in the process of being hijacked by the very system that continues to wage wars and will always continue to wage wars.

Of course it is right that we should remember all those who died in horrific circumstances in the world wars and we should remember those who continue to suffer - from both sides - in conflicts now. But as JohnStuartMills says, war is driven by politicians who sit cosily in their offices, having their own agendas and working only in their own interests. Recent conflicts have nothing to do with democracy or fighting for freedom and everything to do with the west wanting to control those oil-rich countries so they can secure more lucrative deals. The more of the east we control, the more power we have. And it seems that the world wars were not just about defending our own country, but about oppressing others too.

Those men who fought did not deserve to be caught up in a political spin game and this was shown never more cuttingly than in the First World War when soldiers were ordered to their deaths by men who had never set foot in a trench. How little times have changed.

This thread has been useful to me as it has deepened my convictions. I hope all the posts are read and thought over by everyone.

Stigmata, have you thought about emailing MN to ask why? Just for info, they don't email everyone whose posts they delete (I've had a fair few deleted myself), but if someone complains that they have felt personally affronted by your post then that's deemed to be good enough to delete it. I'm sure if you ask you'll get a detailed explanation. Not worth throwing a strop for though.

what rhubs said.

The poppy is nothing to do with the politics of war, I'm not anyone is naive enough to think people that lose their lives in war have ever made a decision that has any impact on governmental intentions to enter into war.

Help for Heroes is another charity that I support, but I am still politically opposed to war. I rather like the West's brand of democracy, it is much more free than that of the East and I rather hope that unless Arab Springs spread and tyrants fall that The West continues to spread freedom.

The west does not spread freedom. They put in who they want in power and then leave.

Gadaffi and Saddam were political allies of the west don't forget until it all went tits up. They they were ousted with our help and another government, who we chose, were put in place. Until that happened, all those atrocities and all those deaths were happening with our government's full knowledge and even with weapons supplied by us. Our government only sends our youngsters into war when it suits them to do so, it has nothing to do with liberating people or freedom. There are other countries who desperately need liberating but they are not important so our governments ignore them.

I appreciate that for you the poppy is not a symbol of these wars, but for me it is and whilst I will donate and help people from all sides, I will not wear a symbol telling people about it.

Rhu, That's entirely up to you.

Unless there is something in it for them the US and the UK have no interest in freedom for freedoms sake or for humanitarian reasons. There are countries the world over being ruled by evil dictators where women and children are abused daily but there is nothing tangible (oil) to be gained from occupation and liberation of these.

Surely a symbol remembering the fallen of a certain countries war efforts is political. While the poppy for those who died may not be the most inflammatory or contentious of symbols FIFA is a global organisation with a brand and image to protect and must have a precedent which can be applicable to all of its members. If you allow England to show support of it's troops who have been injured or killed in recent conflicts then what if other nations elect to do the same. If Palestine or Israel were to be drawn against each other and one elected to put a symbol on their jersey honouring those who have given their lives fighting against the other should FIFA allow it?
What about if Ireland elected to add a symbol honouring those who fought and killed British service men at the 2012 olympics?

FIFA have to set down guidelines on such matters and for once I think they have made the entirley correct decision.
Also surely by placing the poppy on the England jersey the FA are equally making an order that each and every player involved in the match squad must wear one, regardless of their individual choice.

the ireland issue is a hypothetical as I realise we aren't entering a team at the olympics.

amicissima in what way is the poppy not political? If the decision not to wear one is political, surely wearing it is political as well?

Stigmata I don't know if you're still around to read this as you seem to post and then flounce off, like you don't want a response - saying you are retiring to bed or threatening "flounce's corner" or "exiting stage left"
I think your post was probably deleted because you told me people to "shut up" which seems unhelpful on a discussion forum.
My view has all along been quite simple and straight-forward and expressed in those terms too. I feel that war is a sad waste of human life and other resources which are so needed in positive projects (such as providing clean water for all) to make things better for people throughout the world.
I choose not to wear a poppy, although I would consider wearing the white and red together, because to me the red poppy on it's own I don't feel can represent my feelings about war and those who have died fighting in them.
If you have other views I'm very happy to hear and discuss them. That's why I'm happy to share mine with you.

The decision to honour anyone is political though