People feeling under pressure to wear a poppy.

[schroeder]

Yesterday on the bbc news a very interesting conversation about the increasing pressure people feel to wear a poppy seemed about to start, but was cut short. It was something to do with football shirts I think.

I feel this is a conversation that should be had. I work with the public and feel uncomfortable every year when it is expected of me to wear one.

It's not the wearing so much that bothers me, but that in doing so I am supporting a charity I would not support otherwise.
Surely we should not all feel forced to give to this charity whether we like it or not?
I do not think even the British legion woud want poppies to be compulsary?

@pinkx5: "Put your personal politics aside and wear a poppy just to REMEMBER them - because this is NOT about YOU."

So what would you say to Pakdooik, who wrote of her father who fought in WWII:

'My dad never wore a poppy and never joined the British Legion. He said that the "flag waving and marching was done by the survivors".

In his memory and that of his brother I don't wear a poppy either.'

Do you think Pakdooik should ignore her father's wishes and wear a poppy? Or should she show respect to her late father, who fought in WWII and didn't approve of poppy-wearing?

Perhaps when you buy a poppy you can also think of making a similar donation to charities like AfghanAid too?

rhubarb nice to see us agreeing! Pink I don't think you should ever put your personal poiltics aside. I have spent years trying to work out my personal politics and am not about to ditch them now!

Too right Noddy - on both counts!

I wear one, when I remember, in memory of my great uncles who died in WW1 (5 of them) and mum's cousins who both died. I didn't know them but I can imagine how their deaths' must have affected my families. And then I can extrapolate that to all the other thousands of families similarly affected.

It is simply a memorial. And when younger people wear them it's even more effective as they could so easily forget.

FWIW I wear a poppy as a memorial to all the war dead - civilians and soldiers - in all conflicts. It's a reminder that human beings are stupid, selfish and aggressive, as well as noble and self-sacrificing. And that is the case on all 'sides'.

But OrmIrian, whilst I think your reasons are noble, doesn't the money raised only go to British servicemen and women and their families (it doesn't even go to British civilians caught up in the war)? If there was a generic charity that distributed funds evenly to all those caught up in war no matter who they were, then I would gladly support them. But even then I would not wear a symbol. I don't feel the need to make my charitable support public.

Rhubarb: we are making exactly the same point there. Perhaps I did not express it well. And I agree that it's good to donate to other charities that demonstrate the 'other side of war' like Afghanaid.

The point I was making is that people ARE still facing those conditions, conditions that I find unthinkable, desperately sad and totally unjustifiable but that we can acknowledge that on a personal level by wearing a poppy. Perhaps I feel so strongly about this area of my discussion because I live near Catterick Garrison and our playgroup is about 65% Forces. TBH, I am in awe of the strength of my soldier wife/partner friends; they amaze me and I wear a poppy for them and their husbands also. They feel that wearing a poppy acknowledges their situations in some way too.

Hackmum: you have a point about Pakdooick but doing something different to her father would not show disrespect. I am in a similar situation in that my grandad felt similarly to her late father. He didn't wear a poppy either as for him, the war remained in the 'now', in his psyche, in every bone and his very being. He didn't need a poppy to remember as he lived it for the rest of his life, just as it sounds like Pakdooik's father did. (This is really hard to explain!) That choice was also their privilege for their sacrifice. But I don't have that privilege as I didn't have that experience and so I can only show my support and respect for him and those like him by wearing a poppy. For me, wearing a poppy is just a small gesture that says a personal thank you in a way I can't otherwise do. Each to their own I suppose.

noddyholder: I'm not saying you should 'ditch' your personal politics. None of us should, but this should be primarily about remembrance of those who have given for us and not personal beliefs per se. Perhaps a momentary suspension of ourselves, not a ditching! (I don't know how to put little yellow friendly smileys in but that is what I would like to do.)

Anyway, it's a personal preference and each to their own but for me, I feel completely humbled by it all and wear a poppy because I cannot think of another way to show my respect. The symbol of the poppy also helps teach my children about both the past and present situation. (Going into teacherspeak: poppies are a great stimulus for wider historical and social exploration which encourages personal and emotional development etc...)

The poppy isn't worn 'in support of the military' or of war itself. It is a symbol of remembrance and Armistice Day symbolises the day War ends. I take it as a mark of sorrow and peace following conflict.

Most of us have someone in the family who fought - willingly or not - to preserve the freedoms we use whenever we have this sort of debate. My great uncles loathed the military role they played in WW2, as did my grandad who spent weeks digging civilian bodies out of bombed rubble and dismantling guns in Norway. My dad was sent to Korea during his National Service - and you couldn't find a more gentle man. My great grandad died as a result of being gassed on the Western Front, leaving my nan and 3 other orphaned children. I have a lot of Jewish friends with scarred families. War colours our family's development as it does most people's. I have never felt pressurised to wear a poppy - I often do but usually lose them in 5 minutes. There are worse symbols people have been forced to wear...

Rhubarb: only just seen your last post. That's a good point. I would also support a generic charity especially as there needs to be a movement away from supporting the veterans of WWI and II as the majority are no longer with us. The existing charities need to expand their horizons to incorporate wider concerns in order to remain viable.

For many years I would "buy" one but never wear it. I wanted to donate but not be seen as "look look I've donated money". Now I don't see it as buying, I've grown up. I've learnt a lot about where the money actually goes. If there was a hospice day I would probably do the same. However, having said that I can't bear all the different things the charities try to get us to "buy" so I hope the cookies in the banks or the little badges etc do not keep increasing. Having said I don't see it as buying one, I must say that at our local supermarket they set up big tables with an assortment of things you can buy with a suggested minimum donation and it felt like I was doing my shopping before I actually made it into the supermarket.

I have ahuge issue with the glittery ones- like on Strictly Come Dancing, which you can apparently buy from the British Legion themselves. I'm not sure at what point a poppy went from a symbol of remembrance to November's must-have fashion accessory.

Every year there is the same debate. Someone will start on next year. Just quietly support or quietly don't. Don't expect everyone to feel the same-there will never be agreement.

ExoticFruits, yes there is the same debate but you know, you don't have to contribute. Many people may not have read the debate of previous years and very often someone makes a good point that has not been made before. It's very rude to tell people to shut up just because you are bored of hearing about it.

I usually wear one but don't care if other people don't. What I don't get is why anyone would put one on their car?

What the fuck is going on with this thread? Posts deleted all over the place - it's like Victory of the Whinyarses!

Why was SolidGold's message deleted?

I think there can be an element of xenophobia in the pressure to wear a poppy. Many people don't wear one because their ancestors were not British and so they may have no connection to war veterans or have family who were on the other side.

People who've thought about it and have valid reasons for not choosing to donate to this particular charity also mark themselves out as 'other'.

Wearing a poppy makes a statement, and is not the same as supporting a charity.

YABU. The reason most people wear a poppy is because they support what it stands for - the freedom that we are fortunate to enjoy in this country, due to the sacrifices made by others. I like seeing others who have chosen to wear a poppy because of what it symbolises.

hackmum thank you

There is certainly rather more guff from morons this year than there has been in the past, and a lot of it is basically racism. All those Facebook groups and pages going 'If you don't wear a poppy, fuck off back to where you came from, dark-complexioned person - it's no wonder that some people are questioning the pressure to wear poppies and that isn't necessarily a criticism of those who do choose to wear them.

issynoko, beautifully put.

Poppy's are a sign of remembrance, and thanks giving. We wear them to pay our respect to those who have given their lives in wars, all soldiers, from all sides, not to glorify war, or support conflict.

I could start a debate about how shameful it is that we even need a charity like the British Legion to support those injured in conflict and their families......

When I was at school we used to have a remembrance day service. Every year the veterans from the first and second world war would sit, wearing their smart uniforms, medals polished, on a small stage facing a gaggle of rowdy 80's teenagers. We didn't understand or care what it was about. But we had to go, so we'd sit there every year and we'd watch the tears silently run down their elderly face as the heard the names of their brothers, fathers and friends read out. I have never forgotten it.

I wear my poppy with pride.

Robert Fisk wrote:

"all kinds of people who had no idea of the suffering of the Great War ? or the Second, for that matter ? were now ostentatiously wearing a poppy for social or work-related reasons, to look patriotic and British when it suited them, to keep in with their friends and betters and employers. "

The trouble is, that wearing the Poppy has become such an obligatory statement, that it makes a much bigger statement if you don't wear one.

Robert Fisk is a priveleged man. He is very lucky to be in a position to mock those who feel they must conform, those who don't have the power to fight the morons who might attack them for not wearing a poppy as a statement.

We can discuss this here, anonymously on the internet. In real life, it is taboo.

I don't think any body should be forced to wear one. I wear one with pride and donate happily to the charity for which they are raising money. That's my choice. I don't agree with some of the recent conflicts the UK has got itself tangled up in. But I do want to help the soldiers and their families who need support as a result of those conflicts. They are human beings in need and I am grateful that they do what they do. It's not inconceivable with all the economic turmoil going on that there will be a war again. I wouldn't have the balls to sit in a landrover while hostiles take potshots at me to defend our freedoms. I am glad that some people are willing to do that in case we ever really need it again, as we did only a couple of generations ago.