Dale Farm et al

[AnneWiddecomesArse]

A continuation...

But that is where I really do not agree with you truly, and it has been argued long and hard on here. Travellers are not an ethnic minority. IMO. Comparing them to the Jews is frankly insulting. And if a group of black people were causing misery to others by their illegal behaviour, I would see nothing wrong in saying so.

They Travellers are not being compared to Jews. The haters of Travellers are being compared to people who hate Jews.

I posted this near the end of the old thread, but no one answered, so as unfairness in PP has been brought up again I will repost here.

WRT travellers PP applications failing more often that non-travellers - has anyone got a link to detailed stats?

My suspiscions would be lies damn lies and statistics that you need to look a little deeper than the top line

I would anticipate that the vast majority of PP apps by travellers are retrospective - ie "this is what we've built, take it or leave it".

Whereas the vast majority or PP apps will be in advance of any building work & will have been drawn up bearing in mind local plans, guidelines, and in consultation with the planning department about what is and isn't likely to get passed - typically with compromises made along the way by the applicants, (and the ones that most probably would fail anyway not submitted at all)

So if you are comparing outcomes for a group of mostly retrospective planning apps with a group of mostly prospective plannings apps then it's apples & pears I'm afraid.

Truly, just to check - are you saying it is not in the Green Belt?

Exitpersued...Travellers are an ethnic minority, and if you think they aren't then you are very badly informed and have no right to air your opinions on here.
When filling in the Census, Travellers can now tick a box to indicate their Traveller ethnicity. At my children's schools they have Traveller status, which is recognised by all LEAs as an ethnic group.

I just love the way Math pretends she can't see the reasoning that she doesn't like.

P
M
S
L

trulyscrumptious - in Ireland travellers are a social group, not an ethnic group.

So if Exitpersued happens to be posting from Ireland, is that okay then?

'In theory, requiring Gypsies and Travellers to use the planning system would seem an equitable approach but for this policy to be credible there had to be some real prospect of obtaining planning consent for private sites. The House of Lords cast doubt on the effectiveness of this policy in South Bucks v Porter, Wrexham CBC v Berry, and Chichester DC v Keet and Searle. The judges observed that Gypsies? and Travellers? attempts to obtain planning permission almost always met with failure: statistics given to the court found that 90 percent of applications made by Gypsies and Travellers had been refused and that the number of sites that had been authorised had fallen far short of what was needed.

From www.yourrights.org.uk/yourrights/rights-of-gypsies-and-travellers/planning-permission-for-caravan-sites/index.shtml. I will dig for the statistics themselves, but the House of Lords has accepted whatever documentation of this claim was submitted.

truly - Please don't tell me where I can and cannot post.

I am clearly in a minority in not believing that travellers are an ethnic group.

Does that make me an ethnic group.

Can I have some rights please?

Why do you think that comparing Travellers to Jews is insulting? No, actually, please don't answer me that, Exit.
Adolf Hitler had Travellers and Gypsies deported, starved, beaten, executed or gassed in the run up to WW2. Sheesh. If only you had been around to tell him that they aren't an ethnic minority, an estimated 25,000 lives could have been saved.

Truly, just to check - are you saying it is not in the Green Belt?

And if you check my name - you will see how to spell pursued.

But there you go. This debate has been had on here already, about true Gypsies as opposed to Irish Tinkers. And I don't think Basildon Council are planning on firing up the ovens any time soon. That is what I mean by insulting - comparing the eviction of illegal squatters from the land at Dale Farm to the holocaust.

PigletJohn...no I'm not saying that is is not in the Green Belt, but that the former use of the land was as a scrap yard where pollutants ran rife and it wasn't really very nice to look at. The term 'Green Belt' imbues some kind of verdant natural haven which I think clouds the issue a bit.
I'm all in favour of Green Belts but this one didn't seem very green in its previous use.

you any evidence for that? I am astonished to hear that Travellers (presumably Irish, or of Irish descent) were included in the Nazi holocaust. Have

The Roma certainly were. Comparing the eviction of an illegal Traveller camp to what happened to the Roma gypsies, Jews, gays and people with disabilities in Nazi Germany is insulting to their memory.

Exit I am really not comparing Dale Farm to the Holocaust, I am not that dense.
The point was about travellers ethnicity, the insults are all your own work in denying that it existed.
Anyway have to go and feed my horses now.

www.echo-news.co.uk/news/1065414.How_did_Dale_Farm_get_so_big_/

Cray's hill scrapyard... doesn't exactly look industrial.

truly read this thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/a1291059-to-think-that-evicting-hundreds-of-travellers-from-their-site-is-unfair-and-immoral#27253665

I am sorry if I upset you by denying you existed, that was not my intention.

Truly, that's great. I'm glad you agree that the Illegal settlement is in the Green Belt.

I'm all in favour of evicting people who break the law by using green belt land for homes without planning permission.

As a Traveller you'll be well aware that the question of the ethnic background of Roma gypsies - the ones the Nazis rounded up - bears no relevance whatsoever to that of Irish Travellers

What they do have in common is a patriarchal culture and a semi nomadic lifestyle.

]]'www.yourrights.org.uk/yourrights/rights-of-gypsies-and-travellers/definitions-of-gypsy-and-traveller.html Same site wrt Traveller]] /'Gypsy'/Roma/Scottish Traveller/New Traveller/Travelling Show-Circus people definitions.

Same site again. It is very clear that both the government and the courts (not to mention the ECHR) consider Travellers a discrete group.

<a class="break-all" href="//%27www.yourrights.org.uk/yourrights/rights-of-gypsies-and-travellers/definitions-of-gypsy-and-traveller.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Same site wrt Traveller

link again

'As a Traveller you'll be well aware that the question of the ethnic background of Roma gypsies - the ones the Nazis rounded up - bears no relevance whatsoever to that of Irish Travellers'

That statement is complete nonsense.

"What they do have in common is a patriarchal culture" ,wrong I,m afraid,the Travellers may have a patriarchal culture but the Romany gypsies dont,certainly not in this family nor any I have known.

In the interests of fairness, this is a more recent photo of the scrapyard as it was before the Travellers arrived. A slightly more accurate representation than the grainy b&w photo posted earlier.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=Dale+farm+before+it+was+sold&hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&sa=X&rls=en&biw=1723&bih=853&tbm=isch&prmd=ivns&tbnid=DS9sa608RQmIcM:&imgrefurl=smeggys.co.uk/viewtopic.php%3Ff%3D16%26t%3D19477%26p%3D399573&docid=Pm0-ZqWZfZ3ZDM&w=2865&h=3636&ei=jK9nTob-D-OQ4gTd_rjVDA&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=730&page=2&tbnh=158&tbnw=124&start=40&ndsp=28&ved=1t:429" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=Dale+farm+before+it+was+sold&hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&sa=X&rls=en&biw=1723&bih=853&tbm=isch&prmd=ivns&tbnid=DS9sa608RQmIcM:&imgrefurl=smeggys.co.uk/viewtopic.php%3Ff%3D16%26t%3D19477%26p%3D399573&docid=Pm0-ZqWZfZ3ZDM&w=2865&h=3636&ei=jK9nTob-D-OQ4gTd_rjVDA&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=730&page=2&tbnh=158&tbnw=124&start=40&ndsp=28&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:40&tx=60&ty=92