Dale Farm et al

[AnneWiddecomesArse]

A continuation...

Actually Maryz, I have lots of white Irish ancestory. You can come and put your caravan in my garden if you wish. You sound lovely.

The ethnic minority status has nothing to do with being Irish. It's the 'Traveller' bit that counts and the 'Traveller' aspects of the culture (that are not shared by the vast majority of Irish people) that were the basis of the designation.

WG -- good question about other traditionally nomadic groups. I would say that they could reasonably ask for the sort of consideration that Travellers do on the basis of their traditional nomadic life. However, not that many traditional nomads apart from the Roma would be able to weather the British or Irish climate so presumably there wouldn't be many takers for an offer of that sort of consideration of their traditions. One of the complaints Travellers had about council housing in Ireland in the early days of Ireland's settling policy was the excessive warmth indoors and the feeling that the air wasn't fresh or healthy.

Interesting scam here including reference to the fact that Travellers with bank accounts exist; at least one very fat Bank of Ireland account and perhaps a good few wire transfers from the US managed to escape the notice of the Irish Revenue Commissioners, and obviously a lot of banks in the US accepted cash, perhaps in dribs and drabs, but certainly no paycheques were involved in the amassing of about $1m or so in bank accounts in this case. Paying the full price by cheque for real estate transactions is not unheard of, and the people in this article claimed to have been involved in real estate transactions in the UK.

When is a traveller not one anymore? from my understanding of the case they have built brick bungalows without planning permission, that is putting down roots is it not? can't travel if you have to take your house apart brick by brick.

Some of them travel part of the year. The travelling bit is the 'doing' part of the culture, but they identify themselves by ancestry too. Some of them live in chalet style houses that can be taken apart and reassembled.

The Traveller who married an old schoolfriend of mine saw himself as a Traveller even though he was a bank manager, living in a house permanently, with all the trappings of bank managerial life (and he didn't advertise the fact that he was a Traveller at work).

My dad's family had a dairy hand whose wife was a Traveller, living with the dairy hand in a cottage, but she was always marked out as 'the tinker woman' in the town, no matter how she may have seen herself. Their daughter was considered a 'half tinker' (old term for Traveller now considered an insult). Identification as a Traveller works both ways.

The Traveller who married an old schoolfriend of mine saw himself as a Traveller even though he was a bank manager, living in a house permanently, with all the trappings of bank managerial life (and he didn't advertise the fact that he was a Traveller at work).

Why can't all "travellers" do this? Surely this sets a precedent and can be used to justify getting rid of travellers "sites"?

Why can't all Travellers do what? Marry my old schoolfriends? Become bank managers?

I wouldn't mind being a bank manager myself.

I don't know much of his story but obviously school played a huge part in his life, the early part of which (pre college) took place on a site. There was a school where he was made to feel welcome, not picked on, and encouraged to progress, and his parents were encouraged to keep on sending him. A few teachers in particular took a lot of interest. This can't happen when communities are being constantly moved on and not allowed to stay on sites over a long period. His parents were happy that he was good at maths (useful skill as opposed to English Lit) and thought a job in the finance area sounded like a good, practical idea.

Why can't all "travellers" do this? Surely this sets a precedent and can be used to justify getting rid of travellers "sites"?

What a vile comment,I expect I am wasting my time but want to say that not all travellers are rogues or thieves,some live on their sites,pay their income tax and national insurance and their council tax.

Another classic example last night at the drop in centre, group of travellers arrived after me and my dd, demanded to be seen immediately, started fing and blinding at the reception staff, and threatening them.

The children snarling and making nasty comments to other people waiting in the surgery..... Really nice way to behave if you want medical treatment! Hardly getting sympathy from me or anyone else in the surgery, there was about 5 no traveller children, I don't want to have to hear that sort of language or threat of violence especially in a health centre! More importantly why should I have to explain to my children their behaviour?

Sorry they need to start paying some respect for others.....

What's more frustrating is their threats meant they were given into and see before anyone else....... What does this teach their children?

If you want respect you have to give it first! This is another example of how the travellers behave! First hand experience last night! Surely defenders of the travellers do not feel this is acceptable behaviour? I had a long chat with my 4yr when we got back explaining why they talk differently (her innocent comment was why are they talking a funny language!), but how do you explain as my dd gets older and she witnesses behaviour like that, that's it's not appropriate? You can see where resentment/frustration comes from the settled community putting up with this behaviour!

Funnily enough, I had a funny Traveller experience last night as well. Can't be bothered to go into details, but suffice to say it was something that I consider (with an exasperated roll of the eyes) to be 'typical'of the reasons most people find them so hard to tolerate. It was something that just epitomised a blatant disregard for the law, safety, good manners, common sense and awareness of the needs of others around you. It was classic 'we do as we like, and stuff the rest of you' behaviour.

I think the travellers will prove themselves next Monday .... either they go peacefully and abide by the law or they will end up throwing missiles etc at police. Unfortunately I think it won't be a peaceful eviction.

I don't think it will be at all peaceful, but actually I don't think the Travellers will need to muddy their own reputations further by becoming violent or abusive. They have Rent-A-Mob-For-A-Right-On-Cause to do that for them. They are not so stupid as to put a foot wrong with the world's TV cameras rolling. They will be either charm personified, or Professional Victims, and for that you'd have to admire their style.

Butterscotch, are you mad with the Travellers or mad with the staff who let them jump the queue? Or both?

Isn't it clear that the staff felt threatened by the travellers as their behaviour sounds completely unacceptable ..... Or does math anxiety feel it was okay to behave as described by butterscotch?

Of course their behaviour was unacceptable but this sort of behaviour is not exclusive to the travellers,I see a lot of this sort of behaviour from the settled community,it seems to be a trend of life today.

I completely agree with Maryz.

The sooner they are evicted, the better.

I think that sort of behaviour comes from not feeling a part of a community. It is not exclusive to travellers by any means, but I think the answers are always integration and inclusion. Not using cultural sensitivity as a means to prevent that from happening.

FellatioNelson - I think you are right there. The Travellers know the cameras are rolling, the men in charge will try to ensure that they don't come off looking like thugs. Do Rent-A-Mob-For-A-Right-On-Cause have new qualms about what they are doing, given the recent revelations? It is noticable that the tone of the Dale farm supporters posting on this thread, and the moderation, has changed since the media suddenly started paying attention to the slaves found at Traveller camps across the UK.

I am worried that all this negative publicity will mean that Travellers are more discriminated against than before. Some groups are playing high profile games that have implications for all.

The best place to get the real story of Dale farm is to check out the local Basildon Evening Echo. www.echo-news.co.uk/archive/2011/09/06/hg+news/9234619.Essex__Legal_part_of_Dale_Farm_travellers__site_is_almost_empty/
On Monday most of them will just move next door to the legal site that has 34 vacant homes most owed by the Sheridan clan.
or maybe go back to Rathkeale, in Ireland where many have properties that sit empty. They know how the system works and abuse it.

Feel sorry for John Wild a vulnerable man who was kept like a slave at the camp and has now been sectioned.

No, their behaviour was unacceptable (maybe they needed Supernanny laying down the law), but if there are rules about the order in which people should be seen, shouldn't the rules be pointed out and shouldn't there be a way of enforcing the rules? It doesn't have to be Travellers who jump the queue after all -- what if there were a few drunk and disorderly idiots there on a Saturday night?

A lot of people are upset and rightly about Travelers being allowed to get away with this, that and the other, but really, why not call the police if the staff were afraid? There is no point fulminating against them on the internet the nest day, but sitting back and taking it when you're waiting to be seen in a clinic or wherever. There is no way that a medical office where sick people bring children should not be capable of throwing out people who are disorderly or who make the staff and patients feel threatened.

I went to Emergency Rooms in US hospitals plenty with DS as a young teen, as well as an out of hours clinic, and never once entered one without passing a phalanx of burly bouncers/security guards. The hospital that was the most 'inner city' of all the ERs was besieged by raving street people day and night and the security guards made sure they never got in to cause trouble.

(Apparently 9 of the 'slaves' have declined to co-operate with the police inquiry into the conditions under which they lived in Bedfordshire.)

I note the police in Bedfordshire are now focusing less on bandying the word slavery about and have started making noises about the necessity of getting some sort of story out of the remaining men whose needs are being assessed -- "Those people who we continue to help are appreciative of the support that is on offer, but it will take some time to work through with them what has happened." (Det Sean O'Neil). More of a tax issue maybe? And no more mention of dog kennels/starvation/beatings. More emotional than physical trauma. "The new legislation has allowed the investigation more scope and takes into account emotional rather than physical harm," (Det Sean O'Neil).

Also interesting to note that apparently it is fine for alleged fans of the law to assume a Traveller is guilty before any trial has got under way, and in fact before any statements have been taken from the alleged slaves.

This may well be a case of slavery, but as things stand it looks like a case of a rush to judgement here.

Math - look at the other thread re. the slavery, there have been several other cases over the past few months, at different Traveller camps, and there have been interviews with men who escaped some time ago and have come to terms with things to a greater extent - and with their relatives who testified to how psychologically and physically damaged they were. I don't like the newspapers (esp the Guardian) badgering the vulnerable men in the latest incident, especially given the likelihood of Stockholm Syndrome. The slavery story is bigger than you think.

The Independent article on the Rathkeale community, linked to in the other thread, highlighted how the problems come from large numbers of Travellers in rural communities who are not equipped to deal with them. Clinics in rural areas don't have "a phalanx of burly bouncers/security guards". Not even in the US. Pubs and shops in rural areas don't have these either. There is a reasonable expectation that locals will behave.

It has taken me a while, but I've finally realised that, on these threads you've been playing Devil's advocate

Math and Vanessa Redgrave can put their money where their mouth is and put up all these Dale Farm evictees. Simples.

I must be honest, while I have made it quite clear that I am no fan/supporter of the Traveller 'cause' I was more than a little at the timing of these supposed slavery revelations. Apprently the police have been working on an under cover basis for rather a long time on this case, and given that some of the men have been there for many years I am rather cynical about the decision to swoop and make the arrests now just when the authorities need to get the public on-side in the run-up to the eventual Dale Farm eviction! They are probably feeling a bit exasperated at all the sypathy drummed up by all these sweetly reasonable Irish ladies with babes in arms, or gammy legs, or cancer being wheeled out to do a good PR job in front of the TV cameras.