Depraved or deprived: What lies behind these riots, and why aren't they happening in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland?

[Solopower]

I've been reading the threads on the riots and I wondered if we needed one on the causes.

People's ideas seem to range from thinking the rioters are just opportunistic criminals to socially and culturally disadvantaged youngsters.

But why isn't there any rioting in Scotland, for example, where there are pockets of extreme social deprivation?

Zoe Williams' article on the psychology of looting is worth reading, imo:
www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/09/uk-riots-psychology-of-looting?CMP=twt_gu

agree re Smeato et al. we don't have guns up here so much, and less in the way of knife crime, so people haven't learned to be so frightened of intervention. i am sure that's only a matter of time, though.

"They're not paying 50% tax on their ginormous bonuses though, are they? That's the whole reason they get them as bonuses and not as part of their salary."

Eh??? They sure flipping do pay 50% on their bonuses!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and rightly so, mrsmilton. because they sure as flipping fuck don't deserve them.

Damn right Aitch.

"One thing I have noticed is that the media in Scotland has a much more pro-country bias than the English press, which is overwhelmingly, undeservedly negative and plays towards fostering a sense of indignation. Not much happens in Scottish news, so much more balance of happy stories and we have more pride in our country doing things right as it is relatively new in political terms. We big up the good things more often, I think that has an effect on the national psyche"

Fully agree with this, there is a far more positive spin put on Scottish news combined with far, far lower population levels there just aren't going to be as many "shocking" news headlines each day. Did get a surprise after moving up here when in the middle of BBC Newsnight will suddenly jump to Scottish Newsnight in the middle of the program, they could be doing a very interesting piece on events in Iraq/Afghanistan that is relevant to the whole of the UK but it would still without fail without warning jump to "today in Holyrood". I cannot always quite agree with their news priorities.

It is also important to keep in mind the massive population differences when discussing social or economic policy differences between the two countries, England has a population just over 50 million Scotland around 5 million. London has a higher population than the whole of Scotland in a far, far smaller area so of course this is going to lead to more intensified feelings of unrest at times.

Sorry, my bad on bonus taxation. . Am twat.

Less knife crime though aitch? Really? I thought Glasgow was the knife crime capital of Europe? Perhaps it just spills out of particular areas/groups in society less often than elsewhere, so as you say, Scots aren't so afraid of intervening.

When I first moved up here from London, imagine my horror at being accosted by a youth in the street one day when I was trying to lug a microwave out of the car. Rather than nicking it, he was just offering to carry it up the steps to my flat.

And yy to less of a pressure cooker, because of population density.

Where are all the Welsh MNers though? What's occurring there?

In answer to the original question - neither depraved or deprived. What lies behind what has happened is mostly parenting.
We are raising a bunch of helpless idiots at best & a bunch of disrespectful, lawless yobs at worst. Some parents mollycoddle their children, bubble wrap them & protect them from everything that could involve taking responsibility. Other parents see their children as someone else's responsibility: the pre-schools, the schools, the health visitor, the social worker etc. There seems to be a spectrum with treating them like Princes & Princesses at one end with utter apathy at the other & not enough common sense in the middle.
We need to raise our children to have a sense of self-respect and respect for others. To have this they need to see themselves as being responsible members of their families & wider communities. It starts with tidying up the toys every night before going to bed, loading the dishwasher & making their beds as they get older, doing their homework, not sassing the teachers & understanding that if you go out & get bladdered there will be consequences at home that will be followed through. A belief that getting an education or learning a trade will stand in you in good stead & ensure that you can one day be a self-sufficient economically viable adult, standing on your own two feet.
We all need to be role models for our kids - full of respect for ourselves and those around us.
RANT OVER

Glasgow is the knife capital, however most stabbings are gang related. Some innocent people are stabbed,but it is usually other gang members.We don't have the gun problem down south, that's usually kept or the Crime Lord/Gangster types, not the neds on the street.

And I do think more people are unaccepting of trouble, and they do tend to look after their own. In the 80's, I lived as a student in one of the worst areas of Glasgow.I used to get the late night bus from work home. I was watched on my route, for people to make sure that I was okay,cos they heard my footsteps.Surprisingly, I actually loved living there, after initially being terrified. :)

Another reason why possibly no riots here,there is a syaing in Glasgow "You don't shit on your own doorstep", nor do you take from people that have bger all

Nothing doing in Wales, we are all happy here!!!!

I kind of agree with you about parenting bugsy, but the trouble comes with the end of your post: 'A belief that getting an education or learning a trade will stand in you in good stead & ensure that you can one day be a self-sufficient economically viable adult, standing on your own two feet'.
I think the problem is that to many of those children, their parents, and even their grandparents, that simply isn't demonstrably true. If your parents have never had a job, your older siblings have never had a job, and if the media obsesses over the talentless slebs who have got where they are not by dint of 'getting an education' or 'learning a trade' but by taking your clothes off/singing a cover version of a crappy pop song/whatever, then why would you believe someone who tells you that you should jolly well go to school and get yourself a trade? I don't think I would.
So, I don't think we can simply lay all the blame at the parents' feet. The media has to take a lot of the blame too, IMO. Personally, I think the advent of 24-hour rolling news is one of the worst things ever to befall us. Got to fill it with something.
Which is not to say that those 10 year-olds out robbing don't need a good dose of decent parenting.

SusanneLinder
"Oh I agree about the Highland/Lowland divide! I had a very rude man from Stornoway telling me within 30 secs of meeting me, stating he hated Glasgow and people in it. Oh well, you won't need our hospitals then if you have a head injury/cancer then will you?"

Heh! Maybe it's a Highlands thing, upon first meeting a new neighbour I did the normal bland introductions and explaining how we'd just moved up from the south, as you do. He immediately launched into a long ramble about how "He'd got nothing against the English. Never been there. But got nothing against the English". I never implied that he did, though his reaction did suggest that maybe he did!

It's not been totally peaceful in the Northeast - a police station in Washington was attacked last night and a policeman hurt, but it was a small gang rather than a raging hoard.

To answer in the so-called Elephant in the room, the proportion of people from ethnic minorities likely represents the proportion of people from ethnic minorities who live in these areas or in difficult circumstances.

I used to live in an inner city and work with kids form some pretty tough backgrounds. I now live in a rural area, not so far away where unemployment is even higher. There's some pretty tough young people here, but the vibe is totally different. Crime here is surprisingly low.

Agree midnightexpress & I could rant for hours about the media & particularly the influence of tabloids - but I'm going to restrain myself!
I think that familial role models have power that far outweighs the media & you are right that if you haven't had a good role model for generations it is going to be difficult to break the cycle. Sir Harry Burns, the chief medical officer for Scotland has done some amazing work into the cycle of deprivation & how your family keeps you down & he believes it takes 3 generations to break the perpetuating cycle.
I wish I knew where the answer lay or how to go about changing it all - but I feel sure that so many of the problems are weak parenting.

Rainbowtoenails" - in support of Flippinada, you do* get rich areas juxtaposed with poor areas in Glasgow.

Bearsden is right next door to Drumchapel which is a highly deprived area. There is tension yes, but it is low level.

I live in Pollokshields in (half of) a big sandstone villa. Ds goes to the local primary school - which has one of the highest proportions of free school meals in the country - and is 60% ethnic minorties. The other non-denom primary school (ironically enough, even closer to us even though it isn't our catchment school) has a school population for which 98% of the kids have English as their 2nd language. Kris Donald was murdered around the corner from the schools.

Albert Drive (parallel with Nithsdale Drive, 2 streets across) apparently has the highest number of millionaires living in it in Scotland - yet one end of it is the main Asian shopping street, all tenemented and the kids go to the two primary schools with a very high proprtion of school meals.

I agree with those that have said that there is a greater sense of community. We do have a large Asian community - but they are Scottish Asians. During/after the trial of Kris Donald's murderers, the BNP tried to get some traction in the area and were right royally rebuffed.

Whoever it was who wondered whether it is because our schools have a more defined catchment may have a point. It does help build/mainitain a community.

... and it's also too fking cold and miserable. It's pissing down here today.

The community thing is interesting though. One of my friends lives very near you prettybird (Kenmure St) and she regularly has gangs of young people causing trouble outside her flat. And of course a lot of those wealthy people in Pollokshields are Asian. It seems slightly different from the schemes, in that, as you say, it's a more mixed community. Places like Milton or Pollok seem a rather different kettle of fish, no?

And I also think that there is a lot of racism in Scotland. I've certainly heard way more casual racism here than I ever heard in London. DP was warned when he moved up here that the area he was looking to rent in had 'lots of coloureds' .

School catchment area argument is interesting one. In my small town there are 4 secondary schools and the vast majority of children go to the nearest one (and incidentally the same one that their parents went to). It does have the disadvantage that there is a lot of inertia involved - ie the school that was bad 15 years ago is still seen as bad now even though the school has changed, and vice versa, but there is quite a sense of community and everyone tends to know everyone else's children and what they are up to!

YY to the weather. I certainly wouldn't want to get my trainers wet in this.

Definitely too wet to riot in Edinburgh today, it's done nothing but rain!

Can't speak for Glasgow as I'm not as familiar, but Edinburgh does have massive discrepancies between rich and poor but I would agree that we don't have the same massive expanses of rougher areas. Some of the worst areas sit side just a few hundred yards away from much nicer places. Wester Hailes, for example, has Juniper Green and Colinton Village just up the road. Muirhouse pretty quickly turns in to Craigleith/inverleith, etc etc..With a few exceptions the high schools especially have quite mixed catchment areas, often mixing very nice areas with not so great, which means there are probably fewer schools which are utterly awful. They do exist though. I should have gone to one of them myself!

I lived in Pollokshields prettybird - my memories pretty much correspond with yours.

That's true scotsgirl, Edinburgh is a small city though so maybe that's why.

midnightexpress agree with your comments. Actually, I think Mohammed Sarwar lived/lives in West Pollokshields doesn't he? Not sure if he is still an MP.

Midnightexpress : I agree that there are gangs but they are our gangs IYSWIM.

Dh got mugged once on Albert Drive after he shouted at a lady in a full burkha who walked out in front of him on his (push)bike and used him to skid. He then got loads of other people stopping and checking that he was OK.

I will admit to being relatively sheltered from the worst of the deprivation, as I live in West Pollokshields (not one of the streets mentioned but close to where "Single Father" was shot) - but the point remains that rich and poor do live beside each other in some areas of Glasgow.

LOL at 'our gangs' . Yes, I do know what you mean.

Just read the rest of your post properly Midnightexpress and I agree about the casual racism, which, if anything, has got worse in recent years.

Our former neighbours (in the other half of the house) didn't want us to put the seven wheely bins that we had at the time between us (they had managed to acquire an extra green bin for themselves, they generated that much waste) on the driveway near the entrance "because that's what the Asians do"

(Instead, they wanted to keep them in front of the back sheds, which was only the entrance to our - not their - garden )

(We now have lovely new neighbours, both GPs, but - - one of them is Asain, and yes, the bins are now kept down at the bottom of the driveway )