Depraved or deprived: What lies behind these riots, and why aren't they happening in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland?

[Solopower]

I've been reading the threads on the riots and I wondered if we needed one on the causes.

People's ideas seem to range from thinking the rioters are just opportunistic criminals to socially and culturally disadvantaged youngsters.

But why isn't there any rioting in Scotland, for example, where there are pockets of extreme social deprivation?

Zoe Williams' article on the psychology of looting is worth reading, imo:
www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/09/uk-riots-psychology-of-looting?CMP=twt_gu

oh yes re knife crime, didn't express that well. i should have said that it's mostly gang-on-gang stuff, so most people aren't afraid of it. maybe they should be, but they're not, so they would most likely intervene. if it was in the town, i mean, people tearing up shops.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-14481112

Dundee boy charged with riot-stirring.

I can tell you that nobody will be rioting in Nairn tonight as it is freezing and very wet. I suspect that this is a key determinant.

The reason for these riots are a combination of factors

As there were so many youths, bad parenting is certainly a factor
It may have started out in anger but people soon just joined in for a laugh or a way to get free stuff. And this just sums up many sections of society today.

People are raised with no moral compass either because their parents don't give a crap or their kids are too difficult for them to cope either way the result is the same.

Poverty, most of these riots started out in areas with large numbers of people living in poverty, yes..yes I know poverty is only a part of the cause not the whole problem. There is not much to occupy children/teens which does not require money and that cost keeps on increasing they turn to gangs to give them something to do and then people who live in the area join gangs so that they are not attacked for being 'other' there is no where for them to go or at least there is not enough places for these kids.

Lack of community, many people have been wondering how they can destroy their own community that is because they have no sense of community we live in a very egocentric society, a very me first and fuck the world kind of ideology which has been steadily growing over the years how many of you even know your neighbours names? or say anything other than a quick hello except those times when they are doing something which has a negative affect on you (like mowing the lawn at 6am).

People fear children, adults can no longer even tell off another persons child I am sure many of you have seen those threads with someone angry their child got told off. Look at our schools teacher's only recently had strikes because many of them can no longer cope with the attitude of students, they are rude, aggressive, unresponsive and sometimes a threat to teachers.

This problem is not only with youths though have any of you been to tourist hot spots abroad which get many British? Then you would know how the British are viewed because of the general behaviour of our tourists in comparison with other nations.

Good post ColdTruth, I agree with you.

Coldtruth : you haven't answered the other part of this thread's question - which is why are they not happening in Scotland, N.Ireland and Wales? There are many areas of extreme poverty in these areas - why are they not exploding?

That's because they see themselves as different, whilst we proclaim to be the 'United Kingdom' we have large divides and don't see ourselves as one.

These riots spread across England because many people were watching these and saying "yes those guys problems are the same as ours lets copy them" Whereas a Scottish person is more likely to think "wow look at what those English folk are doing."

When people link themselves together it is easier to copy their actions. For example (not the same thing) the revolutions that spread across many Islamic nations. The reason is because despite being different countries they see themselves as Islamic so they have a bond so when one country has a revolution it would spread to the next country as they see their problems and those people as the same as them.

well i can give you my personal welsh perspective .
i would say they are depraved, the welsh valleys have seen just as much of its prospects decline as inner london,the difference seems to be our youth seem to have turned to drugs and suicide not gangs and violence.

Depraved. Simply that most of the looters realised they were in with a very good chance of getting hold of some free stuff. They weren't protesting, they weren't even rioting in the true sense of the word - they were just stealing and vandalising.

I've just come back up to Glasgow from London today and I actually think it's the rain that puts people off looting. brrr

But if anyone fancies going down Buchanan street, could they pick me up some trainers?

let me just kick this into touch re the weather... it has been a bit drizzly but unseasonably warm in Scotland for the last week. today is the first day i've been in a jacket in yonks. so it is not the weather that has prevented riots in Jockoland.

Yes, but "unseasonally warm" in Scotland is not the same as a heatwave down south. I know it was really warm 3 or 4 weeks ago (I was in Greece ) but since I got back from holiday last week, it has not been THAT warm. Pleasant - but not roasting.

Aitch I have lived in Scotland for seven years. There are many things I love about my adopted home. The weather is not one of them. It is fucking atrocious.

I think there are different groups of people, but I would say these reasons cover a lot of young people of all races from urban areas:

DISCLAIMER: Reasons does not mean 'justifications'. I think at the end of the day every person is responsible for their own behaviour (though the age at which this is true is debatable)

The materialistic culture promoted both in the general media but particularly in the media of young people. The life goal kind of thing is to have this lifestyle, to 'make it'.

Stealing from people and stealing from shops is seen as totally different. I would say that many people there would never DREAM of stealing from a person. 'Curry's can lose a few TVs'

Social mobility is very low, and those who didn't get a good education have no means to 'make it'. Being broke is seen as humiliating.

Children in middle class areas generally have positive peer pressure that ensures achievement in school i.e. it is the norm to attend university. There is a lot of low teacher expectations in poor areas, and against black children, which is all subconscious (have seen it myself through working in a school, with black boys in particular in lower ability groups than what is appropriate).

'Gangsta' rap imported from the US and Jamaica, where social mobility is even lower, impresses its ideas on the young people, and make them believe that if you were born in the 'hood' you have absolutely no choice but to sell crack, or steal, or whatever.

Police are obviously not popular as they arrest people over minor things like smoking weed, stop and search with no justification and are often rude, hostile and do not have any kind of understanding about the life these young people are living.

In these shops in their local 'community' they are often treated with disrespect, looked at as criminals, watched constantly or even followed all the way around the shop.

They do not like their communities and a lot of young people would state their aim is to make money and 'move out the hood'.

I don't think you can blame the parents. In a middle class area you have positive peer pressure and positive input from schools. If you are an average parent your child will not commit crime. In these areas you have to be an EXCEPTIONAL parent for your sons to not commit crime, due to the peer group.

Materialism with the 'more more more mememe' culture does not seem to be a problem with the middle class as they can afford to indulge it.

People keep saying 'you can make it with hard work', but that is much more difficult than it sounds, especially with inept parents. And I don't think we can blame 11 year olds for not working hard at school, as working hard in an environment where working hard is for 'neeks' (geeks) who are bullied, robbed and beaten up, is certainly not easy at all.

I am not in any way defending the burning of people's homes. I thought that was disgusting and totally incongruous with the other actions. I would imagine they just got caught up in the hype.

I also would like to mention the interesting reporting of this event.

Daily Mail has two pictures one of white looter one of black looter, white is referred to as 'man', black is referred to as 'yob'.

When referring to the original reason for the protest, seeking justice is always written with inverted commas around 'justice'.

Talk about the looters on TV is very excluding, as if the young people are not as valid a part of the community or London as everyone else, which of course, being humans, they are.

This is indicative of crumbling morals and rising materialism across the whole society. These are just some of of the people bearing the brunt of it; the product of it.

Absolute rubbish (directed at anybody being sympathetic). I've witnessed two riots in my life:

1. Belfast. I saw people I recognised from my own university (QUB) throwing bricks and petrol bombs at the police. They were well-educated, from good families and had been given every opportunity in life. No, they were not deprived people from the Falls/ Shankil, but basically just fancied a bit of entertainment when the pubs closed. It wasn't politically motivated but just vandalism and fun. (FYI reckon both rioters and the police are more efficent in NI. They all knew what they were doing) I can be definite about this, because I asked some of them afterwards.

1. Ealing a couple of nights ago. People were thoroughly enjoying themselves. They were enjoying the violence and looting. Nope, there was no political motivation, it was just the pure pleasure of destruction. In my opinion, it also looked in some cases as though it was a family outing- if I was to work out the ages. I don't think it was about deprivation either, just morons.

From OP article- '.. just because there is no political agenda on the part of the rioters doesn't mean the answer isn't rooted in politics' -totally agree! And Coldtruth agree with alot of what you said.

I was really pleased to see a thread asking WHY. As much as the rioting appears to be senseless vandalism, do we really think we can account this level of chaos to just pure senseless vandalism, without any root cause?

Totally agree that some people will have joined in for the sake if it/ out of loyalty/ for the sheer thrill, but for many I agree it's the result of years/generations of deprivation, no social mobility, no prospects and no voice. You have to ask yourself why so many people feel so disaffected and detached from society that they would loot, vandalise and burn the very neighbourhoods they live in- because why not? Society has never done anything for them, other than wipe it's feet on them, so why feel any loyality or allegiance to it.

Kind of agree with the 'breakdown of the family unit' argument, but again I think that's because it's not just the youth that feel so disaffected, it's generations of the same families- hence imagines of families looting shops.

Also, what example is wider society setting? Politicians fiddling expenses, the Media setting their own moral rules..... Yet none of these are really held to account. So it's ok....right?!!!

So yes, these people are not rioting, to protest polically against their experiences and marginisation in society, but this rioting is a symptom of this political issue.

i am just saying that it is not the weather that is stopping people from rioting up here. it is vile today, but for the days when england has been rioting it's been perfectly pleasant.

tortu don't think anyone is saying they are sympathetic to the rioters. Violence and looting is NOT acceptable and I do not sympathise. BUT this thread is about the causes, and to recognise that this rioting might be a symptom of a wider societal issue is mature and necessary if we want to avoid anything like this again.

We should be arresting as many of these looters as possible and making an example of them. But that's only applying a piaster to the injury, leaving the underlying problem to fester.

Tortu, agreed, there are people from all sorts of backgrounds and some are just doing it for the fun and excitement, but even that should raise questions as to why they feel that is acceptable.

I think I brought up the weather - I was hoping it'll put the dampers on Manchester, rather than that it explained the seemly behaviour of the Scots.

even that should raise questions as to why they feel that is acceptable.
I would imagine a lot of the thrill comes from knowing that it isn't acceptable.

nah, grimma, i wasn't disagreeing with you. i am absolutely sure that the weather has a bearing, most definitely. in fact i think the LA riots were during a heatwave. when was brixton?

i was disagreeing with NormanTebbit, who said 'I've just come back up to Glasgow from London today and I actually think it's the rain that puts people off looting. brrr'. because not that she would know this, having not been here, but the rain that she is experiencing only started today.

I really don't buy the deprived / poverty thing. I lived in Wandsworth for 15 years until a few years ago, a real mixed bag of social strata & incomes, with huge local authority estates & there was only a small amount of trouble. I moved out to a very affluent area of Berkshire & have regularly encountered large groups of maurauding youngsters causing trouble. It got so bad where I live that the council had to install CCTV cameras in leafy suburbia. Thames Valley police came & visited us all & gave us a hotline number for their rapid response units. There is NO economic deprivation where I live - absolutely none whatsoever. These very comfortably off young people have no respect for themselves, their parents or their neighbourhood. They hang out by the local corner shop, smoking, drinking, swearing, showing their backsides, shouting abuse at passers by. We've had a glassing & a bit of rioting too (police turned up with vans & their riot gear) and all of this in a small affluent town in Berkshire with no social deprivation. Bored, spoilt, irresponsible young people with far too much time on their hands and parents who can't / won't deal with them.

Bugsy I would say that in higher income areas the disorder is more obvious as it is more antisocial e.g. graffiti, drinking, hanging around. The young people in really deprived areas are too busy trying to make money e.g. selling drugs, burglary in rich areas, to make that kind of trouble. That is not to say there aren't drug dealers in suburbia or loud troublemakers in the 'ghetto' but I believe it to be true generally.

Fascinating thread, thanks - bit of refreshing analysis what I need after seeing much of my school run burning on Mon eve (looting 4 mins' walk away from house, man shot and died in same rd as DD and DS's school)

Re Causes - going for depraved and deprived-of-conscience-in-upbring slant with main difference from riot-free parts of UK being transport/mobility.

Don't think you can argue motivation from places targetted, (and what a crying shame about that Sackville st glass in Manc) -we had Age Concern wrecked and the zone with largely ethnic shops becuase the police kept mob out of central business district which funelled them down those roads.

Neighbour coming home from work was surounded by lads on the bus in hoodies and with their faces covered.. public transport so good here, they had choice of bus/tram/train or mate with car off main rd to pick up loot.

Why depravity? Did you hear that audio link of the two girls bragging on BBC website? "It was such a laugh, yeah, mayhem..[giggle] we showing the police they can't tell us what to do.. yeah just we showing the busines owners - those rich people..". ,resists temptation to portray them with poor grammar. These girls (and admittedly they had been drinking) seemingly had no concept of responsibility/respect or empathy.

A car mechanic buddy today reckons the loss of EMA has removed a lot of the kids' sense of worthwhile futures.

Don't shoot me down in flames if these seem obvious points, we haven't got a tv and I don't read the papers (Jamillla that mail photo description yob thing is the reason)