Depraved or deprived: What lies behind these riots, and why aren't they happening in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland?

[Solopower]

I've been reading the threads on the riots and I wondered if we needed one on the causes.

People's ideas seem to range from thinking the rioters are just opportunistic criminals to socially and culturally disadvantaged youngsters.

But why isn't there any rioting in Scotland, for example, where there are pockets of extreme social deprivation?

Zoe Williams' article on the psychology of looting is worth reading, imo:
www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/09/uk-riots-psychology-of-looting?CMP=twt_gu

I didn't say the deli was a massive issue -it was just something my DH happened to have mentioned to me a moment before.

I can - just about - understand how envy and materialism drives looting. But not smashing things up for the sake of it.

Possilpark is a stones throw away from Bishopbriggs - not million pound houses but still a big gulf in household incomes

Sorry, haven't read the whole thread, but what I have read is very interesting. I lived for many years in Hackney and now live in Glasgow. My impression, as an outsider, is that although there is just as much social deprivation here (possibly more cross-generational poverty than down south in fact), and there are also the same pockets of wealth and poverty in close proximity, there is also more of a sense of 'we're all in it together' up here. The average person on the street seems to have a better understanding of what life is like in the schemes, and more of a sense of shared responsibility in trying to sort out those problems. Note how Scottish people don't vote Tory, for example.
As I say, we're not proper Glaswegians, so this is very much my impression of things here.

They really aren't you know rainbow - I do know what I'm talking about. I lived in Glasgow for 5 years in a nice area that was bordered by a deprived area; and I've lived in Edinburgh for just under 10 years.

Oh, and I also think that Scottish people are acutely conscious of the gap between here and down south in terms of wealth, jobs etc, so that perhaps overrides anger against your ain folk? Dunno.

I'm glad other people have come on to confirm what I'm saying about Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Here's an example of what I mean - Nithsdale Drive in Glasgow, known as 'Millionaire's Row'; huge detached sandstone houses. Less than 10 mins walk away is the spot where Kriss Donald was kidnapped and murdered.

Edinburgh; Wester Hailes (a notoriously bad area) is next door to Kingsknowe and Juniper Green which are both posh.

So if it isn't disparity of wealth that makes the difference what is it? There has to be a good reason why it's happening in London and other English cities and not in other places.

I guess all English people must be conscience-less scum with no consideration for other then

BTW most of England isn't in flames. Most of us are carrying on as normal. What's the reason for that?

Flippinada, I will look at the blog.

I suppose I feel that we are all in this together, wherever we live and whether we are right- or left-wing or no wing at all, and it doesn't help to think about the problem in the old ways (wet liberals v 'caning's too good for them' brigades).

Did you see Newsnight last night? Kelvin McKenzie came across as such a frothing idiot, I thought. But what was interesting was that they read out a list of people who'd appeared before the beak that morning in connection with the previous night's rioting - a graphic designer, a graduate student, a youth worker. Half of the others seem to be 12 year-olds, if the media is to be believed. So, I don't think it can be put down entirely to deprivation.

I don't think for a moment that English people are conscience-less scum! I'm English myself. Scotland has its own problems, like sectarianism.

I think part of the problem is we is that we are materially well off, generally speaking, but morally/culturally there is a a gaping hole.

To explain what I mean - if you look at the rioters, they are wearing expensive sports gear/trainers and carrying smart phones etc. You don't have to wealthy to get those things but if you have access to stuff like that you are not deprived (in a material sense).

I agree midnightexpress, there is no community good or bad, in some areas of London. Even in the high rises, it's just dog eat dog. People with no future, no life, no purpose, just existing. In places like Clapham, they have to do this alongside some pretty wealthy people who bought up all the nice houses and gentrified the high street. I so agree with Zoe Williams when she says you cannot push consumerism and aspirational buying under the noses of those who haven't the means to pay for it legally without expecting some sort of backlash eventually.

What those copycat little shits did in Manchester is heartbreaking - but they are the products of feckless, no-good, lazy, morally-bankrupt parents who were probably at home cheering their little bastards on on Sky News. In the past, I worked around people like this and sometimes your heart does bleed for them and the pointless abyss they occupy but most of the time you just think the world would be a better place without them. They take everything you offer, but give nothing back.

Did I hear rightly on BBC 24 that the first person in court today in London was sentenced to ONE DAY in prison? But because of time served (ie. yesterday) he has walked free.

solopower I agree with you there.

So does the issue come down to 21st C post-Thatcher materialism v the good old-fashioned paternalistic class system.

In 'the old days' the poor would 'know their place' - they might aspire to respectability through education or hard work but wouldn't expect all the expensive things the rich/upper classes had. Now that anyone can be wealthy no matter what their background, and they find they aren't, they get pissed off.

LOL! The irony

Interesting analysis, Ormirian! Rich man in his castle, the poor man at his gate ... The good old days, eh?

Absolutely agree flippinnada. It's all very well having a flat screen tv, but that's not living really, is it? I remember once sitting on the dear old 38 bus to Clapton Pond about 12 years ago (so not a new phenomenon at all), listening to the conversation of the two teenagers behind me. They spent the entire journey, about an hour, discussing what mobile phone they wanted. It's as if people have 'stuff', but nothing else. Nothing at all. And I don't just mean rioters, but people in general. There does seem to be a hole in our lives.

Just to back up flippinada:
There are very large divides between the rich and poor in Scotland, as other people have mentioned further up the thread the Glasgow poor and the Glasgow rich are very segregated. My uncle grew up in the poor area of Glasgow and in order to visit his parents he has to drive round a completely different route into the city than if he was going into the rich part. Glasgow East is one of the most deprived areas in the UK, Calton (just north of the Clyde) was given a male life expectancy of 54 by WHO in 2008! Aberdeen also has segregated rich/poor areas though it is also has people living in near slum like council buildings extremely close to the richer £500k+ homes. There is also still a strong Highland/lowland divide in the same vein of Englands north/south one with the same long history of antagonism. A builder (in the Highlands) once commented to us "Don't worry, we hate the Glasgow lot more than we hate the English". Other than that we got on very well with him!

BTW, that "teacher", Alexis Bailey, is actually a man and it doesn't say in anything I've read that he was a teacher at all - just that he worked in a school. All sorts of people work in schools.... although presuably he won't be back any time soon.

The comparisons to bankers and their bonuses is way off the mark - most bankers are paying 50% tax and contributing thousands and thousands of £££ towards keeping these kids in iphones and trainers the benefits these people enjoy.

Here is an article about the research I mentioned earlier, about poor youths in Glasgow sticking to their own territory

They're not paying 50% tax on their ginormous bonuses though, are they? That's the whole reason they get them as bonuses and not as part of their salary.

No, bonuses are taxed in the same way as base salary.

Scotland has had its time feeling misrepresented and badly treated by the government, which sowed the seeds for devolution. Recent events have left English people feeling cheated by the politicians, the police, the media, the bankers all at once - no wonder there is disillusionment. I think Scotland feels a bit separated from it all with a government we mostly voted for who haven't gone back on their manifesto (yet), papers currently hacking scandal free, no sudden difference in the entitlements between a current 18 yr old and their older sibling. I know a lot of the rioters are not interested in going to university, but to see the student protests basically ignored and losing the EMA must feel a little like the rug being pulled out. They don't have an obvious place or voice in society, so have little invested in it.

One thing I have noticed is that the media in Scotland has a much more pro-country bias than the English press, which is overwhelmingly, undeservedly negative and plays towards fostering a sense of indignation. Not much happens in Scottish news, so much more balance of happy stories and we have more pride in our country doing things right as it is relatively new in political terms. We big up the good things more often, I think that has an effect on the national psyche.

Yes, I think there is a real social/cultural poverty in our society. How to tackle it, I don't know.

I think poor parenting is one issue, but how the hell do you tackle that?

Oh I agree about the Highland/Lowland divide! I had a very rude man from Stornoway telling me within 30 secs of meeting me, stating he hated Glasgow and people in it. Oh well, you won't need our hospitals then if you have a head injury/cancer then will you?

DH and I were discussing the fact that there are no riots here, and we came up with the following,possible conclusions.

1. I will mention the elephant in the room and say that our ethnic minorities are mostly Asian/Chinese, who generally integrate pretty well, and most of them have good jobs and businesses, and are not deprived.

1. We are mostly pretty happy with the Scottish Government and the way that it is run.

1. The "Stop and Search" policy is less used up here, and there is a better relationship with the police.

1. Of course we have anti-social behaviour here,but it doesn't seem to be to the same degree as in England. I have hardly heard of anyone terrorised from their home in the same way that seems to happen south of the border.Maybe we complain more or something. I don't live in a deprived area, but I am sure I am right,cos any "neighbours from hell", seem to be named and shamed in the Daily Record/Scottish Sun. :)

1. One eejit did have a Facebook Page to try and start a riot up here, and he was shopped to Crimestoppers by a load of fellow gobby teenagers, and subsequently arrested.

1. It's too wet to riot/the decent shops are hardly in the City Centre,they are in out of town shopping centres.Mots of the good shops are in malls in Glasgow City Centre such as Buchanan Galleries/Princes Square/St Enoch Centre. By the time hey had managed to get through the Shopping Centre Security, I think the Police Horses and dogs may have arrived. :)

Midnightexpress, I agree with you. I do believe that we have all come to depend on the acquisition of things to make us happy in some regard.

The economy depends on it for better or worse.

Alongside that the rioters/looters or whatever you want to call them seem to have little or no stake in their own communities or even in the wider society. How do you even begin to address that?

I did wonder if the riots hadn't happened in Scotland because the would-be looters would expect the Police to be more heavy handed, or for shop owners (or by-standers like at the Glasgow airport attacks) to get involved and retaliate. Maybe Scottish Neds are a little bit more cautious if it looks like they might get a kicking? I know if men in my family saw that happening they would be seriously tempted to intervene.