Enfield riots?

[Empusa]

Just seen on Twitter and in a few articles like this, that there are meant to be plans for a riot in Enfield tonight and riot police are in the town centre?

Used to live there, and got family there (luckily a fair distance from the centre), but fucking hell! What the hell is going on?

Married - I've done that too. "You do know that they take you away and not me don't you?"

Bootcamps...I have always argued that soft social working approach on its own will not reverse social decay

I wouldn't say it's easier to be tough when you have "privilege".

I don't think a smack works wonders at all. Ever.

and yes I've done it, long ago, and it never helped the situation in any way whatsoever, which is why I stopped doing it and have never done it to my subsequent child plus I think I'm probably just a better parent now.

I think it's wrong to say a smack can work wonders, it might encourage people to try it. And it doesn't work, it's shit, you feel shit, your child feels scared of you. If it worked I'd still be trying it now. But it's pointless.

As I said on another thread, you can borrow this guy if you want. :)

But really, it's so hard. There is a family of four little girls close to me. They're always running amok, always filthy, every bad cliche you can think of. But their parents love them, it's obvious. They just genuinely have no idea of how to be better parents. What do we do?

I would bet a large amount of money that every one of the rioters has been smacked repeatedly.

Oh FFS! Fires in Langley!

Davida, I don't think that the odd smack causes children to be afraid of their parents. Smacking in anger or out of control does. I think you have to be quite closed minded to not be able to differentiate between the two. There are many fine lines in life that we are given brains to decipher and to use to the best of our ability.
Unfortunately common sense is no longer 'common sense' it's a murky grey re that we all disagree on.

Children nowadays don't seem to be afraid of anyone - parents, teachers, police, anyone. When we were kids there was always something we were scared of, whether it was 'when your dad gets home' or being sent to the head or whatever. And that was healthy. Your mum/maths teacher/local copper shouldn't be your mate or your equal, they should be an authority figure and you should worry what they might do. Kids need that fear factor.

I suspect there are some quite frightening people in the home lives of many rioters. Maybe the problem is that a teacher finds it difficult to compete in the frightening stakes if a child/young adult is in regular contact with drug dealers or unpredictable people who are regularly under the influence.

Thats very true merrymouse but it hs always been the case unfortunately. There have always been families who live in fear of a member of the household. Drunken dads coming home and beating their children and wives, it has just become a lot more apparent and socially unacceptable nowdays.
Like debrs said though the respect has gone from all parts of society, People used to know their local policeman,Dr,teacher and they all paid respect to them but now people couldn't give a monkeys what you are or what you do because no one has the right to any authority anymore.

I lived in Africa for a while too and my husband is of Africn origin. It is just normal that if kid is naughty over there they will get a smack on the bum - are we then saying that all parents in these countries are abusers and should be sent to jail. Of course none of them love their kids because they let other people tell them off.

It's difficult to respect a teacher when they go to work wanting to be cool and be friends with the kids - first name terms, flip flops, T shirts, etc.

I agree married. The teachers I respected at school were the 'strict' no nonsense ones not the ones who tried to be 'cool'!

Fear is a great way to control people if you think you can motivate them with fear for their entire lives. It works if you can shove them in the work house or if you can create a society that purposefully promotes the idea that some people are less important than others (That is pretty much the world my grandparents grew up in at the beginning of the last century - if you weren't the right class, you could aspire to working in the fields, the factory or somebody else's house - lot's of 'respect', but not really a world I would like to return to). Fear works if you can put enough energy into controlling others that they don't one day get the upper hand and decide to control you (with fear).

Fear doesn't work quite so well in a world where we expect people to lead lives where they engage their brains, where we believe that all are created equal, whatever race, class or gender.

I agree that a community can't exist without authority, but fear is something different.

But Merrymouse how have things changed apart from the workhouse aspect and welfare state. People still work for others - a huge childcare childcare industry has grown up: au-pairs, nannies, childminders where higher earning women pay less academic women to work for them. A gentleman came to clean my oven yesterday, my cleaner will come later today.

People shouldn't fear other people but I don't think there is anything wrong in ensuring there are consequences for those who will not behave in a way that is civilised and acceptable.

'Davida, I don't think that the odd smack causes children to be afraid of their parents. Smacking in anger or out of control does. I think you have to be quite closed minded to not be able to differentiate between the two.'

On the contrary. I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say...that a blow delivered in cold blood is reassuring to a child where one delivered in the heat of the moment is detrimental?

I find that really sinister. Just what does a cold blooded, well thought out and calmly delivered assault on a child's body achieve?

Davida It means they're afraid of their parents. Which translates into respect for authority. Which translates into less running amok. Which translates into a more ordered society, which I think is a good thing. I'm not advocating beating anyone senseless, but I think smacking is OK if it's consistent and an absolute last resort.

I'll give you an example of the difference between smacking for discipline and random violence. DP grew up in an area and culture where smacking children - or worse - was normal. His mother would smack him and his sisters as a last resort, and they always knew that if his mother did that they'd really crossed a line and would stop playing up. His father, on the other hand, was unpredictably violent and would bang his head against the wall or kick him down the stairs for apparently trivial things.

When he talks about his mother, he describes a sense of consistency which he respected. His father, on the other hand, traumatised him badly in a way that's had long-term consequences for him.

Davida, considering a smack as a "cold blooded assault" from a parent says more about how children's rights are considered more important than teaching them boundaries.

I am no fan of smacking, I don't intend to smack.. BUT I do not agree with a culture that views an adult asserting a reasonable degree of control over a child as assault. My father, like O's partner, was also abused by his grandfather in a random, violent way, It is entirely and utterly different to disciplinary smacking in an otherwise healthy relationship and it disgusts me when they are equated, where kids can cry "abuse" because they have been restrained in their room by parents and prevented from going out to do drugs or run riot and are supported in this assertion. My mother smacked, both in the heat of the moment and in "cold blood" as you say and it did sod all to our relationship or to my self-esteem. I was bloody well behaved, though. We also talked things through and if she had overstepped the mark she apologised.

Davida, you seem to have a lot of experience of inner city kids and how to manage them and also teenagers, Why don't you share how exactly you would manage them?
Abuse is very different to discipline and I think you must know that, maybe you are just scared of going too far?

....and I agree with working, I don't intend to smcak my kids, I don't want to and I will try to resolve issues without having to do it, But, I nor my husband will not allow our children to step all over us or control wht we do. I believe in boundaries, I believe kids need security and to know how fr eaxctly they can push you. If the situation gets so bad tht the child would benefit from a smack on the hand then so be the case. Does trying to teach your children for the best make you such a terrible parent?

Many oven cleaners operate their own franchises. I was an au pair because it enabled me to attend university in Paris and get work experience in french theatre companies. Presumably your cleaner doesn't doff her cap when she walks through the door and scurry to hide so that she doesn't offend you with her presence.

Anybody who intentionally arranges their life so that their child can spend most of their waking hours with somebody who they think of as 'less academic' is a few bricks short of a load themselves, but perhaps that is another topic.

That's not to say that there isn't a huge army of underpaid, badly treated workers in this country. It's just that we don't think of them as being that way as part of God's order.

And I'll say it again, do you honestly, honestly believe that the looters are behaving as they do because they didn't get smacked enough?

I would imagine that their lives are short on bedtime stories, home cooked meals, and yes boundaries, but I think there is probably plenty of smacking, clips round the ear hole and down right walloping.

No i'm not saying that merrymouse! I think it is a number of things contributing to it but basically down to simple lawlessness - what creates that lawlessness is down to opinion!
There are plenty of wonderful,mature kids who have thrived without ever having a smack in their lives. Wht I am saying is that we shouldnt be so quick to judge those parents who think differently because maybe their kids are thriving too.

....and I don't have a cleaner, I do it myself as we can't afford one