Absent fathers to be made into scape goats

[ivykaty44]

absent fathers

as a single mother who has lived without maintenence for periods of time and at times struggled to make ends meet I still think it is awful to suggest making a group of people stigmatised.

there are good NoneResidentParents and there are useless NRP, it isn't just absent fathers but sometimes absent mothers. What sort of country do we live in thuogh where we would want to stigmatise a whole group of people.

Better to keep the CSA free and make it work rather than the clerical mess it is at the moment.

jellybeans - the other side of this is that my DH's ex wife has swanned around for the past 9 years to various expensive UK locations, including the not inexpensive Centerparcs, and given my stepdaughters no reason to ever want to take responsibility for their own earnings having cheerfully provided them with laptops, iphones and other expensive items for birthdays and Christmases. Oh, and trips to Alton Towers every other week. And she has also had the cheek in the past to ask my DH to pay for items of clothing my DSDs have occasionally mislaid, over and above what he pays her each month. Every single present we have ever bought my DSDs has been eclipsed by the expensive ones they have been bought by my DH's ex and her husband. My eldest DSD (14) declared the other day that she has no intention of getting a little job to earn some money for clothes etc because she gets a £50 per month 'allowance' from her mum and "Where will i find the time to work when i do so many out of school activities?"

sorry rotten, i dont know what you mean by that?

actually i would argue that as women we KNOW the buck falls with us. I think before you get pregnant you should ask yourself am i prepared to have raise a child alone?

ok so he should have worn a condom, but if she has told him shes on the pill why wouldnt he trust her/
i a more suspicious of the woman who refuses a condom and lies saying shes on the pill than the bloke who trusts she is on the pill.

crapola, the same could be said to the woman.

biologically we carry the childrens, your body your responcibility.

I know a very sweet, but hopeless lad, who's girl friend ( and her parents) don't want to have contact with his son.
I can quite understand their point of view. He will never, in the modern world we live in, without qualifications or a supportive family, not be totally disorganised and fail to keep a job. But I know he misses his son and would love to be more use.
The government simply vilifying absent young dad's without looking into the reasons why they have children they can't support and why they can't support them is just not helpful.

given the myriad of experiences (he left / she left/ she had to leave cause of abuse/ he had to leave cause of abuse etc) its hard to find an approach that is going to suit everyone. I dont really think it helps though to stigmatise one section over the other... surely its that children should be supported- no matter what order they are conceived in?

after all, not all men leave their wives for their fancy number.... my partner was dumped and left with nothing. and yes Dinosaur he does put his first family first.
90% of his wage goes on supporting his one child and ex partner... and our children? well, I am the main breadwinner and receive no support what so ever- either from the state or DP (and that includes childcare- after all we do not have the choice of him being a SAHD as his ex and son have to be supported too...) Is that fair to DP and my children and me?... um no. But his son and ex are supported and it seems that that is mainly what society care about... second families dont even rate. Is DC saying that children of first relationships should come first over and above everything else? I think so, yes.

Ivykaty -if stigmatising them can include sending bailiffs round so that neighbours and others can see what has been happening, I believe it would help.

The client I mentioned did say that one more competent member of CSA staff managed to get get bailiffs sent round to the house. Shen heard there was a hell of a commotion and that neighbours and others were very keen to see what was happening.

The fact that this man lied his way out of then paying any money is the disappointing bit. But the point I'm trying to make is that he was apparently panicking about the prospect of other people becoming aware of his own feckless behaviour..

As a self employed man, he has a reputation to maintain, especially living in a small village. Would you want to employ someone you knew had behaved in that way?

i don't know. If these men are so useless as to walk out on their kids in the first place, would you really want them to hang around?

In my opinion, single mothers are stigmatised more than the husbands who put them in that place. My mother was certainly ignored by a number of friends from the moment she got divorced, as if it was her fault the marriage was ruined, and she was now not giving me the 'best' upbringing with a secure happy little family unit.
In reality, my father had an affair with a much younger (only just legal) drug addict who was in and out of rehab. He chose her over me, got angry when I showed fear of him or upset of my parents split and became violent and nasty. He walked away, refusing to pay, treating my mother horrifically- if he paid some months, it would be not the full amount. My mum tired i hide all this from me, but i knew- i heard the phone calls and saw the devastation he'd caused as well as felt the hurt.
Abandoning a child who has doen nothing wrong is disgusting, and thoughtless of the impacts on that child. Leaving a mother to pick up the pieces is disgusting. That child is his responsibility, his actions- whether supporting or being absent have a direct impact on that childs mental health, prospects and future.

We stigmatise single mums, teenage mums..for doing the best they can- yes some have amde mistakes but theyve picked up the pieces and are trying their darn hardest to do the best for their child.
Absent fathers run away from it and leave others to pick up the pieces. They actively choose to really hurt their child by abandoning them and giving up on them.

I agree, the same is to be said of absent mothers. But there is NO JUSTIFIED REASON for a father to be absent through any fault but his own. He has made that choice and it is disgusting.

Yes fathers should pay rather than the state so anything that enforces that is good. However, I would imagine a high percentage of single parents rely on the state - therefore themselves not supporting their child/children. It has to be equal - one parent should not be stigmatised over the other.

At the same time perhaps the courts could change too and give fathers more rights and start at 50/50 custody. That way both parents could equal input into the childs life and both be responsible financially without the need for state interference.

You only have to look on here to see threads saying should I name him on the birth cert, should I move miles away, should I stop contact etc, should I come off the pill and not tell him. Its never acceptable not to be a good parent but some people add fuel to the fire and prevent this.

I guess when I saw the article I figured this was at the heart of a lot of what he is trying to do. It isn't okay for people to keep moving through life doing whatever they want, whenever they want, to whomever they want with no comeback or consequences. I still get a bit shocked every day at peoples selfish (i do what I like and sod everyone else) behavoir. Whilst I doubt his little statement will change that I applaud the effort and the sentiment.

knitted....Attitudes like yours are pretty much anti women.

knittedbreast

but your argument fails because women aren't asked to raise a child alone financially. The state provides an element of support so the fear factor of "Oh my god if I get pregnant how will I provide for myself and the child if the father doesn't accept financial responsibility?" is vastly reduced.

We all pay to support the single parent indirectly because so many absent parents won't pay directly to support their children.

Blokes should want to use a condom out of the fear factor that they will be made to pay for any children born as a result of the sex they are about to have with a woman however much she assures them that she is on the pill.

There is hardly any stigma anymore in respect of children born to single parents/ outside of an official partnership which is a good thing for the children surely ?

Society has still, however, to resolve the rapid spreading of a lack of social conscience that has developed as an unwanted by-product of the gradual reduction in society's overt disapproval/stigma in relation to such set-ups.

I hate to say it but I'm with DC on this one. It's not about stigmatizing fathers as a group, just the runaway ones and for so long it's been single mothers who have had to put up with the guilt. And bless him for saying that SMs do a good job.

With all his "family-friendly" flexible work / paternity leave initiatives he is moving towards a Swedish style model where women enjoy equal working rights and men are automatically involved in their children's lives. Surely a good thing.

The only thing I don't like is this nostalgic emphasis on a 1950's style model - it's a bit dumb, considering you can't force people to stay together - why would you want to?

If you can father a child then you should willingly financially and emotionally support that child. Not leave it to the mother to bring up the child you created together.
And as mothers we should be saying that it is wholly unacceptable to father a child and then provide no support upon the relationship breakdown. We should not accept this behaviour from men. It should be unacceptable.
And I speak as a mother who has received no maintenance for my children. His words "if I give you money you'll spend it on you"! He lives abroad and the csa have no way of getting money from him.
I know there are good fathers who do support their children. I'm talking bout the feckless fathers.

Makes a change from single mothers all being stigmatised which is what normally happens.

I happen to believe in the importance of fathers. I was raised by a fine example who perhaps set the bar a bit high and made me think that no father would turn his back on his own children.

My ex doesn't work, has just dumped the woman he left us for and their two small children - he is allowed to swan off without a backward glance.

I have worked damn hard to raise happy dts. They found male role models in the Cubs and at school (with my dad too until he died a couple of years back) - they know that real dads don't do that. Yet the challenge is increased by a toothless CSA and system that allows deadbeat dads to exist and condemns the many, many really top dads to be tarred by the same brush. To walk away from the children is heartless and the remaining parent (because mothers do this too) is left with not only the financial problems but the emotional problems too.

I'm glad to say that my feelings on fathers is still positive, ex-dh is just a selfish pig - I've just failed to provide my dts with a decent dad.

Hang on a minute! ALL absent fathers shouldn't be tarred with the same brush. My boyfriend's son was taken from him at 6 weeks old by his mother who went back to her home town, some 360 odd miles away! Imagine coming home from work and finding your new son gone!!!

That was 12 years ago and my boyfriend has made EVERY effort to stay in touch with his son since, pays money direct to his mother and travels the long distance to see him every 6 weeks or so for the weekend. There has never been any encouragement from his mother's side......no regular phone calls from son to father. It's always been a one sided affair.

And now we're having a child of our own, his mother has gone completely 'off the wall', contacted the CSA straight away (despite my boyfriend paying directly into her account on regular monthly basis), meaning my boyfriend has to pay more money, not allowing him to afford to be able to visit him.

So don't tell me ALL absent fathers should 'feel the force of their shame' Cameron! Why is it always the father who's frowned upon when relationships breakdown. I'm sick of it. Mother's have a responsiblity to nurture relationships between fathers and son too, in the best interests of the child!

I haven't read the whole thread but I am very annoyed that the resident parent is also going to get charged for using the CSA. Why should we be penalised when the NRP simply refuses to pay and that is beyond our control?? The tories have not changed their brand of politics at all since the 80s, which invloves single parent bashing whoever the parent is.

Sorry - my message was supposed to go on the general board and not in reply to your thread!

Hang on a minute! ALL absent fathers shouldn't be tarred with the same brush. My boyfriend's son was taken from him at 6 weeks old by his mother who went back to her home town, some 360 odd miles away! Imagine coming home from work and finding your new son gone!!!

That was 12 years ago and my boyfriend has made EVERY effort to stay in touch with his son since, pays money direct to his mother and travels the long distance to see him every 6 weeks or so for the weekend. There has never been any encouragement from his mother's side......no regular phone calls from son to father. It's always been a one sided affair.

And now we're having a child of our own, his mother has gone completely 'off the wall', contacted the CSA straight away (despite my boyfriend paying directly into her account on regular monthly basis), meaning my boyfriend has to pay more money, not allowing him to afford to be able to visit him.

So don't tell me ALL absent fathers should 'feel the force of their shame' Cameron! Why is it always the father who's frowned upon when relationships breakdown. I'm sick of it. Mother's have a responsiblity to nurture relationships between fathers and son too, in the best interests of the child!

And my children's father falls in to the category of one who wants to see the children often and share in their good times but not make any financial contribution - personally, I can't work that one out.

Instead of wittering on about how run-away parents should be shunned by society perhaps Cameron should be a little more virtuous himself and NOT punish those of us who didn't run away and have a family to raise mostly alone.

We don't pay maintenance for dsd...
Officially she lives at her mothers, her school address and tax credits/child benefit is at her mothers. Her doctors address is at ours.
She spends more than half the year with us. We have 7 out of 14 and extras. We also have her while her mother goes on holiday, wants an extra night without her or has something else planned. We never ever don't have her the nights we're meant to. Dsd has two of everything, including school shoes, uniform, lunchbox, clothes and toys. Any extra activities or money for school trips we go halves on if her mother is organising or sorting out that particular thing. Anything we sort out or organise we pay for on our own, even if she is at her mothers when they happen. Basically even though her address is still at her mothers we pay more living costs for her and more towards dsd's lifestyle than her mother does, now should we still pay maintenance on top of that? Even though we provide more for her as it is?

please note- this is not a dig at her mother or trying to imply that she isn't a good parent, just that these situations aren't always as clear as they look.

TwoIfBySea

Don't be so hard on yourself.

Sadly not every dad who sees their child daily is 100% a decent dad anyway.

Your ex is exactly the sort of "parent" who needs their benefit reducing to make some sort of repayment on their debt to society as a whole who are picking up the tab.

If reducing benefits leaves them moaning about living on a pittance/borderline starvation, well they only have their own selfish actions to blame. Your ex could, after all, apply for jobs if the reduced benefit levels left him skipping meals to make ends meet, something I'm fairly certain a lot of single parents left caring for children on a meagre budget have done more than once to make sure the children don't go without.

Society needs to ditch any reservations it may have about attaching stigma to being a deadbeat parent who will not provide for their child(ren). The sooner the relevant individuals are named and shamed the better.

But that is entirely different wrongagain - you clearly have shared residence and on that basis you wouldn't pay maintenance, whether her mother's address is her official address or not. When I applied to the CSA they asked about how much time the children spend with their dad overnight and they deduct money off accordingly (they spend 4 night a month at his house).