Absent fathers to be made into scape goats

[ivykaty44]

absent fathers

as a single mother who has lived without maintenence for periods of time and at times struggled to make ends meet I still think it is awful to suggest making a group of people stigmatised.

there are good NoneResidentParents and there are useless NRP, it isn't just absent fathers but sometimes absent mothers. What sort of country do we live in thuogh where we would want to stigmatise a whole group of people.

Better to keep the CSA free and make it work rather than the clerical mess it is at the moment.

I agree it's not either or, I think both should be dealt with. And I also think the issue of non resident parents who piss their kids around re contact should be dealt with, but that's an issue that is not even being talked about.

My point is, that this is a thread about non-paying resident parents and much of it has been taken up arguing about bitch harridan resident parents -as always happens, because most people are much more interested in the latter than the former, because that is how the public debate is framed. And seeing as how mumsnet is a parenting site, I don't see why we shouldn't debate the bigger issue in terms of numbers (although of course it's not a bigger issue in terms of importance in individual lives).

that's interesting sunshine. So my case would be considered successful, as they did get a fiver a week out of xp for about a month five or so years ago.... and of course, what also happens, is that men who are on the dole adn get ordered to pay #5 a week, don't then get ordered to pay more when they get jobs -there are masses of NRP's out there paying a fiver a week, who aren't on benefit.

Whatever way you try to present/dispute the figures, that's a hell of a lot of children not receiving any financial help from one of the parents who brought them into the world. It is a massive problem.

HerBeX - do you really have such a limited vocabulary that you have to repeatedly keep using that awful term? Or are you just so insistent on being offended that it helps you feel so

There aren't any figures for contact blocking that I know of. So I've no idea how big the problem is.

But I do think when people seperate in this country the way things are set up it can become so adversarial, with winners and losers.

And it seems to me the CSA can encourage a pay-per-view philosophy, and whoever has the child-benefit is the PWC by default.

I think the idea of mediation is a good idea, as long as their isn't any history of abuse.

And I would have thought combining the CSA with the tax system would be a better idea.

Which awful term

NRPs? What would you prefer?

"bitch harridan resident parents" - erm, how about PWC? Resident parents?

The problem with "history of abuse" Truck, is that lots of abuse doesn't have a history, because women don't report it.

Emotional abuse is simply unrecognised.

With physical abuse, the average woman suffers 34 attacks before she calls the police.

If she happened to divorce the bloke at attack number 28, there would be no record of abuse.

That's why mediation is not a panacea. I agree it's a good idea in principle, but a mediator would have to be trained to spot abuse issues. There's some good evidence that in many of the early cases of mediation, abusers used the mediation sessions to further bully their victims into doing exactly what they wanted and the mediators were powerless to stop it because they were unaware of the dynamics. That is a serious issue - 1 in 4 women are the victims of DV in their lifetime, so we have got to assume that a large percentage of those going through the relationship split process, are going to be abusers and abuse victims.

LOL. I use the term to illustrate the way the media generally portrays resident parents. But I won't use it anymore if it upsets you.

HerBeX - I'm genuinely interested - in which media/in what form are resident parents portrayed as bitches? I'm well aware (though I don't watch it!) that by all accounts Tracy Barlow isn't supposed to be the nicest person, but I'm assuming you're not basing that opinion purely on soapland (where they're all nuts and appear to murder eachother on a regular basis)

Oh I am not going to trawl the internet for negative images of lone parents allnew.

Trust me, it's out there and the fact that NRPs piss their exes and DC's about isn't on the same scale. I'm sure someone's done a study on it but tbh I've got to go and deal with the consequences of defrosting my fridge right now so am not going to spend hours proving what everyone knows is true -that the image of lone parents in the media is absolutely appalling and that myths about single parents are still assiduously promoted in the media.

While I mop up freezing cold water, you can have a quick glimpse at this if you're interested:

study on negative images of lone parents

jumping back to the op point - 1 of my kids has an absentee parent and he has avoided paying £10,000 plus in maintenance (over 10 years) because I was too stupid naivee to persue him for maintenance - always thinking he might actually give a damn pay attention to his eldest child and use the money to come and see them (a WHOLE 1.5 hours away we are...)

But no. Instead I made a grave error over many years which has cost this child dearly, in the financial sense. Just think what a difference that money would have made to their life (even now) and how much easier things could have been for us financially, especially when I was a lone FT working parent (I have a new DH model now, who has finally started working out LOL).

He has just started paying just under the minimum amount, as a private arrangement, as I threatened to go to the CSA, so he now contributes a WHOPPING £20 a month, but could stop it at anytime and it took 6 months for him to set it up.

I think it is absolutely FINE to stigmatise absentee PARENTS (as some are women) who do not financially contribute to their child's upkeep. But then I am a bit of a fascist and believe that ALL parents should contribute to their childrens' costs, even LPs, once the youngest child is of school age (FT careers, obviously, would still be caring for their chn).

The USA, where NOT a good example of social caring, does seem to have a pretty robust attitude and approach to making sure both parents contribute financially to a child's up keep...

The older I get, the more shockingly permissive I find society. Surely part of being a parent, whether absent or not, is to financially contribute to and support your children??

I will now absent MYSELF and go get a hard hat.

Her is right that there is also an issue over people not turning up week after week. You could institute a rule that if you don't turn up at the right term or within 30 minutes of it then you miss the next 3 contact visits or pay sums to the mother such as the sums she loses from not being able to work then or her additional babysitting cost or just a sum to cover the hassle of the unreliability of it.

I didn't ask you to trawl the internet. Honestly I don't understand you. You express indignant frustration that apparently people aren't listening to your point, about which you have argued the toss all morning/week. Then when I express a genuine interest in what type of media you're talking about you're basic response is well I'm not going to trawl the internet and actually I'm busy with my fridge

Just had a v quick browse of that report - it seems to centre on the employment/dependency aspects of impressions of LPs (rather than nasty or negative behavious which your posts seem to indicate that LPs are widely accused of by the meda - ie hence your "b...w...h..." comments)

Truck I am in broad agreement with your last post. (what is going on today?

I completely agree with you about the adversarial set up being counterproductive for separating parents, when emotions are already running high and injustices are being keenly felt.

However, HerBex makes a vital point about abuse. I can't remember the source sorry, but I recently read (on here I think) that DV is cited in 1/3 to 1/2 of divorces. (I wonder if that's the same half not paying maintenance by any chance?) Bancroft's research shows that false allegations are actually rare and that because abuse is about control and entitlement, abusive partners are extremely likely to become abusive parents. Mediation would definitely need to take this into account, and indefinite supervised contact should be the default position for any parent with a history of abuse toward the PWC. In some cases, it may even be better to be blocked completely.

If we could properly enforce maintenance, and properly prevent abuse - all of which are possible - then we have a starting point for proper mediation that encourages responsible parents to come to their own mutually agreed contact arrangements. When you then have a PWC who is being genuinely obstructive, you can throw the book at them. They would be a lot easier to spot.

herbex - very interesting article. Thank you. Very interesting points about barriers to re-entering the labour market and the links to negative stereotypes. I always think it is such an under use (if I may use that phrase) of talented and capeable individuals (ie. LPs) and a shocking waste not to enable MORE LP's back into the work place. Let's face it, the state has tried and failed to reduce the levels of poverty in the population who do rely on benefits, perhaps it's about time to seriously consider how to help people back into work - perhaps joint custody and parental responsibilities, or the absentee parent fully contributing financially to their childs' upkeep, could be pivotal.

Xenia - fines for not turning up, now I would have made a FORTUNE!! It's a nice idea to try and reglate the visits, how it could practically be done and policed? Who knows?

Allnew, I called the men who hang out on those poor me men's forums 'losers' and that is what they are, and many have an axe to grind against the evil women who have ruined their lives blah blah.

If a man really, truly wants to get involved in a child's life, he hires a solicitor and the solicitor gets the ball rolling, sends letters to schools and exWives detailing the man's rights. What kind of divorces do you all have here, those of you who are moaning about the evil harridans stealing children from men? It behoves everyone getting divorced who is a parent and who wants to have a say in their children's lives to have a cast iron arrangement, with every possible I dotted and T crossed when it comes to visitation and contact, medical care and education. To proceed on a handshake is ludicrous.

BB, your remark about the US rings true. There is not half the welfare net available for anyone in the US that there is in the UK. No child benefit for instance, for anyone. It is far easier for parents to assume someone else will pay for their children in the UK. Because that is what happens.

We didn't go to court, and something like 10% of divorces end up in court.

Could the sysytem cope with everyone going to court?

And great use of the word 'behoves'.

Jesus, here's just one:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/features/7528771/Agony-of-the-frozen-out-fathers.html

You'll have to cut and paste it I'm afraid. Very incendiary, very Telegraph. There was a whole BBC series on Who Needs Fathers? last year.

If you search on the Observer (there was a feature on nrp fathers who can't see their children within the last six months, but it isn't coming up on a search, their website search facility is a bit crap) the Daily Mail, the Express, the Sun, the Mirror, there's loads of this stuff.

I'm afraid I don't have time to find all the links and post them, I am supposed to be working.

re the news agenda: Very little about unpaid maintenance in the media. I'm not saying the position of nrp parents shouldn't be covered, but it tends to be a bit disproportionate, overall.

The majority of editors and section heads are middle aged men, who tend to drive the news agenda. Because of the anti-social and long hours media culture, women with children tend not to last the course, or get to senior positions, single female parents even less so. Like it or not, that influences what gets covered.

Cynical former journalist emotion

I think everyone should go to court. It's fine for DC to grandstand, but let's see him put some money where his mouth is and make it possible for all divorces and child support to be adjudicated by the courts, with the remedies that are available to parties left in the lurch through the courts there for all.

I for one will not hold my breath waiting for DC to actually make it possible for parents to get the authority of the courts behind their arrangements. There would be a vast need for free legal aid, more judges and court personnel, more administrators to keep track of payments/paperwork, more bailiffs... Is this realistically going to happen? Meanwhile the British taxpayer pays.

mathanxiety - so does that mean that all the women posting on here about their problems and asking for advice are 'losers' as well?

Btw DH didn't 'proceed on a handshake'. He went to court and had to fight hard to get access to his children

allnew - I think you are being extremely disingenuous here.

Are you really going to argue that the media portrayal of single mothers is positive and that there isn't an overwhelming majority of messages out there which are negative about lone parents?

And tbh I am not going to waste my time trawling the internet in order for you to come back and say "that's just a few articles, anyway, my dh's ex is a bitch because xyz... and another thing she did was..."

There is a wealth of evidence out there that shows that the systematic portrayal of absent fathers in the media is positive (look at f4J - no one ever mentioned that the founder members had a history of domestic violence and none of the mainstream media were ever interested in asking the mothers there side of the story) and that the portrayal of lone mothers is negative. You can deny it if you want to and demand that everyone else wastes there time trying to find you proof, but I can't be arsed to play that game with you tbh. You're living in that parallel universe if you deny the portrayal of lone parents.

If its an amicable split, I don't see any need to go to court though.

sunshine - i read somewhere that lone parents are 3 times as likely as the average woman, to have experienced DV in an adult relationship.