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vegan parents to be prosecuted

115 replies

HecateTheCrone · 29/03/2011 16:29

vegans in dock over baby's death

A tragic story. Clearly these parents did not intend any harm to their baby. They must be devastated. However, does this mean that parental choices that have the potential to cause harm to the baby will see them jailed if something does happen to the baby? Smoking, drinking, etc, as well as diet. Is this a good thing? bad thing?

OP posts:
ArthurPewty · 31/03/2011 11:49

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Othersideofthechannel · 31/03/2011 11:52

Sieglind, the French press says "the autopsy revealed a deficiency in Vit A and Vit B12 which according to experts, increases your sensitivity to infections and was probably caused by an unbalanced diet'

They also report that the older child was home-schooled which is extremely rare in France and regarded with suspicion.

sieglinde · 31/03/2011 12:02

Oh dear. I had a feeling homeschooling would crop up somewhere. Isn't it also utterly illegal in much of the EU, Germany, for example?

Vegans do need to take Vitamin B12. I was vegan for six months and took it daily, but I've never heard of vegans with a vitamin A deficiency. I am also one of those who bf my daughter almost exclusively for nine months plus, but I wasn't vegan or even vegetarian at the time.

Rickets is still quite common in exclusively bf babies in areas that don't get much sunlight - in the mountains of Iran, for instance, though anywhere north of Watford Gap means that even an hour of full-body exposure in winter won't do it - you have to take D2, and if you aren't told to while bf there can be problems; rickets is on the increase, alas, though bf is unlikely to be the main reason. This is because bf and winter alike deplete the body's stores of Vitamin D so that the mother runs out of it in early spring - now, in fact, so take some cod liver oil, ladies. Calcium is less likely to be depleted.

The case I remember from the US was a toddler put on a macrobiotic diet - she died of protein-fat deficiency, which became known as muesli malnutrition, somewhat ludicrously.

juuule · 31/03/2011 12:08

While I can see that the fully bf baby showing vitamin deficiencies and the mother being vegan might cause questions to be asked (although not necessarily being the problem), I can't see the relevance of mentioning they HE. The older child hasn't any deficiencies "The parents, who also have a 13-year-old daughter who was not found to be suffering from any deficiencies" from Guardian report.

osotc bf mothers don't have routine blood tests in UK. But you are right that tests are usually done during pregnancy (if the mother allows) but I'm not sure that B12 levels are tested for. I can't remember what dietary advice is given ante/post natally.

sieglinde · 31/03/2011 13:50

B12 is a focus of antenatal advice, though, because of its role in preventing spina bifida. I can't see the relevance of HE either, hence my alarm.

juuule · 31/03/2011 14:03

I didn't realise that B12 was recommended to help prevent spina bifida. Is that a recent thing? I knew about folic acid which I do remember being mentioned. I don't think anything was said about B12 though.

ArthurPewty · 31/03/2011 14:07

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nikki1978 · 31/03/2011 14:11

My DD was breast fed until she was 2 and refused all food until over a year old so she was EBF for over a year. She was perfectly healthy. It is hard to say whether this is down to the mothers diet (I can't believe being vegan could be the problem) but if she was malnourished herself or did not feed the baby much this could have been the problem.

Very sad :(

ArthurPewty · 31/03/2011 14:14

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sieglinde · 31/03/2011 14:24

Gee, it's obviously too long since I was pregnant Grin I think B12 was virtually forced on us. Leonie, presumably if your bf children are fine then there would be no reason to check? It's really only Vitamin D that's currently an WHO concern.

thumbwitch · 31/03/2011 14:29

Poor baby, how sad. :(
And agree, stupid parents, especially refusing to hospitalise a tiny baby with bronchitis.
I would imagine the 13yo got through it because they weren't vegan when she was a baby - it says so in the article.

Some vegans get a B12 injection, I believe it's meant to be every month but it could be less frequently than that. B12 is a big issue in vegan babies.

Stupid veganism that doesn't ensure a full complement of nutrients could be very problematic to a small baby.

That's not to say that veganism is inherently wrong, of course it isn't! But it has to be done with sense and knowledge, not ignorance and prejudice.

vvviola · 31/03/2011 14:37

I suspect the mention of HE was because it is so very rare in France - rare enough that the French press would comment on it, and (as far as I've heard from colleagues who work in the area) something that the authorities would be concerned about. (Bearing in mind the colleague works within the education system, that's not saying anything other than she/her colleagues disapprove of it).

I think the system is very similar to her in Belgium where, if children over the age of 6 are taken out of school for anything other than illness, more than once or twice, there is the potential for police involvement.

sieglinde · 31/03/2011 14:53

So this is also quite like Germany, where HE is utterly forbidden? Amazing how the state takes control of matters which should be up to individuals.

Othersideofthechannel · 31/03/2011 17:25

The French newspaper article mentioned lots of signs of the parents being 'alternative', including that the mother was wearing an Indian skirt! Vegans and HEers both rare in France.

I don't know about police involvement but if your child misses more than two half days per month for non medical reasons, the head teacher is obliged to tell the education authorities who will investigate and depending on their conclusions, could tell the benefit agency to stop your child benefit. But that's only when your child is registered with a particular school.

earlyriser · 31/03/2011 17:40

wannabe shall i tell my 2 healthy gorgeous full of beans vegan from birth children (3 and 5) to stop running around the garden beacuse they shouldn't have survived past 6 months??

Totally agree with the fact that focusing on vegan and bf takes away from the real issue that they were woefully ignorant people.

seeker · 31/03/2011 17:50

These people are not vegans - they are nutters. Well, they may be vegans too, but they may also be astronomers, socialists, and flat earthers. Its oly the nutter bit that's even remotely relevant to the death of the baby/

BarbarianMum · 31/03/2011 20:13

Not just 'woefully ignorant' but neglectful.

Most parents do what they think is best for their children regarding diet, medical care etc and our ideas of what constitutes 'best' vary -fine.

But when your idea of what's 'best' results in a underweight, sick baby you do at least have a duty to seek advice and help. You don't just keep pissing around with clay and cabbage leaves and hope it will turn out OK.

PenguinArmy · 01/04/2011 02:54

It was untreated bronchitis and baby losing weight, not the vegan BF issue Angry. They had an aversion to modern medicine

Most vegans know more about nutrition than regular meat eaters.

Also nearly every specialist vegan food product is fortified with B12 (soy products, vegan margarine, soy milk) plus regular foods like breakfast cereals.

What about all the children with vitamin D deficiency, they are not targeted in this way.

corydoras · 01/04/2011 05:00

I live in France I hope the do the whole 30 years, with a bit of luck it will 30 ans ferme. That's 30 years minimum. Human beings are OMNIVORES not herbivores.

GotArt · 01/04/2011 05:14

wannabe "but a baby cannot thrive on a vegan diet - babies need protein." They most certainly can, if the parents know about nutrition. I know 4 children raised from birth as vegans with vegan parents and they are all healthy kids in their pre-teens now. The mother was clearly not getting the nutrients she needed to live and produce BM.

This is a simple case of neglect on part of the parents and the first doctor that saw the child at 9 months.. I'm a little confused as to why though they went to the doctor to begin with TBH with how the rest of the article painted them as not wanting to give the child medical attention.

GotArt · 01/04/2011 05:16

Penguin I read that in Canada, about 75% of children are vit D deficient. Its a very much needed vitamin.

PenguinArmy · 01/04/2011 05:17

I'm not saying it isn't, in fact that's my point.

GotArt · 01/04/2011 05:23

OH no... sorry. I was totally agreeing with you. Grin

Othersideofthechannel · 01/04/2011 05:49

GotArt, you have to take babies to the doctor at 9 months in France. You're advised to take them monthly (or more often if specific concerns) but the authorities would only be aware if you didn't take the baby at 9 months.

Bubbaluv · 01/04/2011 05:56

Corydoras, not sure what your point is other than that Humans' natural diet is omnivorous.
I think the point that a lot of veg/vegans have made here is that they know that and that reasonable vegans therefore go to great lengths to ensure that they get appropriate nutrition while not compromising their ideals.