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Original poster

vegan parents to be prosecuted

115 replies

HecateTheCrone · 29/03/2011 16:29

vegans in dock over baby's death

A tragic story. Clearly these parents did not intend any harm to their baby. They must be devastated. However, does this mean that parental choices that have the potential to cause harm to the baby will see them jailed if something does happen to the baby? Smoking, drinking, etc, as well as diet. Is this a good thing? bad thing?

OP posts:
QueenOfFlippingEverything · 29/03/2011 17:50

There's got to be something else going on with this - a child can survive and even thrive on just breastmilk well past 6 months and a child can thrive on a vegan diet.

Presumably the mother herself was exceptionally poorly nourished - its not unknown for 'veganism' to be masking an eating disorder. Google 'orthorexia'.

Original poster
HecateTheCrone · 29/03/2011 17:52

Well, I do believe that they did not do what they did with the intention that the result of their actions would be the child's death. However, they were very ignorant about nutrition.

It does lead on to other things - like children dying because the parents won't allow certain things due to religious beliefs. Is this more or less acceptable / understandable than ethical beliefs if the result is the same?

and really, my main ponderings were my second bit - However, does this mean that parental choices that have the potential to cause harm to the baby will see them jailed if something does happen to the baby? Smoking, drinking, etc, as well as diet. Is this a good thing? bad thing?

OP posts:
Chil1234 · 29/03/2011 17:56

The article says the child was seen by a doctor for bronchitis two months before it died and weightloss was noted. If the respiratory infection did not clear up, the child was malnourished and subjected to being smothered in clay & cabbages (and I bet there were more filthy 'home remedies' besides) then you've got the kind of nasty conditions that killed off lots of babies in Victorian slums.

StealthPolarBear · 29/03/2011 17:59

exactly my thoughts QOFE

Chil1234 · 29/03/2011 18:04

" However, does this mean that parental choices that have the potential to cause harm to the baby will see them jailed if something does happen to the baby?"

Potential to cause harm is a judgement call. Children are already removed by SS from parents on drugs or who are alcoholic - but it's not automatic, by any means. But if actual harm results from parental neglect, removal and/or prosecution is appropriate.

MilaMae · 29/03/2011 18:07

Whatever the reason if you have a thin,ill child you deal with it whatever.If you can't you go to a doctor and follow their advice. To do neither is shameful neglect.As somebody else said if you took out veganism and bm it would just be a story about neglect and starving a child to death.I have no sympathy with the couple(unless mental illness is involved),to just watch a child fade away in pain is just awful.

Bewunce · 29/03/2011 18:13

How sad.

MillsAndDoom · 29/03/2011 18:33

Desperately sad - the veganism and bf is not the cause of the child's death though - the child died through misguided parents ignoring medical advice for a serious condition.

wannaBe · 29/03/2011 18:47

but thin is we can never know whether the fact they were vegans and the fact this child was given only bm contributed to his death - it might well have done.

In answer to the op - yes, I think that if a parent's lifestyle contributes to the condition of their children they should be held accountable. I think that for example, if a jw refuses their child a blood transfusion on religious grounds they should be charged with neglect and the children should be removed. If you want to die in the name of whatever God you worship then crack on, but no-one should have the right to make that decision on behalf of their child.

SpringchickenGoldBrass · 29/03/2011 21:52

The combination of veganism and 'home remedies' suggests ignorant, self-rightous wankers who sacrificed their child to their misinformed 'principles'. And as someone else said, it's probable that the mother wasn't eating a sufficiently nutritious diet hence the breast milk wasn't sufficiently nutritious either.

StealthPolarBear · 29/03/2011 21:56

over a very long period of time - i.e. she was severely deficient (as we know she was)

Just in case there are any bfers lurking and feeling bad about their current diet of takeaway pizza and cake

elvisgirl · 30/03/2011 04:24

Incidentally I know a now 3yr old who was EBF until 1yr old - no issues. I personally don't agree with that but can see that if done with fully informed parenting then it is not necessarily wholly bad. Agree that it is not the main issue here tho.

Tortoiseonthehalfshell · 30/03/2011 06:01

Studies have shown that the protein and calorie content of breast milk varies very little in relation to maternal diet. I mean, obviously things consumed by the mother passes through to breastmilk (alcohol, eg) but there's been lots of studies comparing the nutritional value of breastmilk from lactating Third World mothers and those in the west, and there's little to no difference. Vitamin contents do vary very markedly, and it looks like a vitamin deficiency contributed to the issue here so it is relevant.

There are also plenty of sources indicating that exclusively breastfeeding to a year isn't harmful. A lot of babyled weaning people will agree that their children take in hardly any calories through solid food until very close to a year old; that was certainly our experience, and DD's a great eater now.

So to the extent that the breast milk had anything to do with it, it'll have been connected to the B12 deficiency. But really, the issue here is that they let a very young child struggle with bronchitis, hardly an insignificant disease, for over two months with no medical attention.

It's not a red herring, the vegan/breastfeeding issue, but it's certainly not the real lede in this story.

TrillianAstra · 30/03/2011 08:56

If anything I think the 'alternative medicine' (as in, instead of real medicine) should have been made a bigger point in the story.

Their baby died because they ignored normal medical advice in favour of their own homemade remedies.

Morloth · 30/03/2011 09:12

Being a vegan doesn't automatically make you smart.

You can be a thick negligent moron and not want to eat animal products, it doesn't provide any special protection against stupidity.

DS1 was basically EBF until about a year, he wasn't that fussed about other foods, he was and is fine.

DS2 however was snatching food from about 5 months, I just stopped wrestling with him.

He wouldn't have managed on just BM I think.

Poor baby, he must have been so hungry and they just watched him die.

Either they are fucking idiots who shouldn't be allowed to breed ever again or they are evil monsters who similarly shouldn't be allowed to do it again.

LineRunner · 30/03/2011 18:45

I saw this in the Guardian today and was surprised that an intelliegent broadsheet newspaper had kept the erroneous 'vegan' and 'breastfeeding' elements in the headline when clearly the story was about the parents' rejection of adequate medical help.

Yes, the parents were wrong and possibly barking; but not because they embraced veganism or breastfeeding.

Cheers, Guardian.

LavenderRacingKingfisher · 30/03/2011 20:39

The vegan business is not a red herring. It's very relevant. The one thing that it is really difficult to get naturally when you're a vegan is vitamin B12 (you have to love Marmite). Therefore, B12 would be lacking in the breast milk. Since B12 is essential for resistance to infection, hence you get a baby who could succumb to pneumonia.

thisisyesterday · 30/03/2011 20:43

sorry haven't read entire thread but my initial thoughts are:

why wasn't this followed up after the child's 9 month check?

why were they only giving the baby breastmilk? that has NOTHING to do with being vegan. anyone could choose to only give their child milk....

twats!

thisisyesterday · 30/03/2011 20:45

and having now skimmed thread i take HUGE issue with the vegan children can't be healthy!!!

look on my profile and you will see pics of 2 (my youngest 2) incredibly healthy little boys who are on a vegan diet! we are veggie and they have intolerances to dairy and egg.

so NAHHHHHH

EmmaBemma · 31/03/2011 10:03

great post from tortoise - pretty much nails it I think.

ScarlettWalking · 31/03/2011 10:22

That poor baby must have suffered :(

sieglinde · 31/03/2011 10:33

The Daily Flail definitely said Vitamin B12 deficiency was a factor, but what do they know? This has become another story about experts knowing best, and stupid parents Getting It Wrong. So convenient. And clearly and hideously true this time, but how many MORE stories are there of misdiagnosed infants, babies whose parents repeatedly drew medical problems to the attention of docs in vain, children whose special needs were brushed aside by experts?

juuule · 31/03/2011 11:25

Regarding the B12 issue. Wouldn't the mother having a blood test show whether she was B12 deficient and if she was whether she was deficient enough for the baby not to receive any B12 through the bm. Even if the B12 deficiency wasn't a major influence on the baby, if the mother wasn't deficient then it could be ruled out completely.

juuule · 31/03/2011 11:37

Maybe a blood test wouldn't prove anything. According to [http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/infants VeganHealth.org]] "The B12 in mother's milk is more related to current B12 intake than to mother's B12 stores " So if the mother wasn't taking in B12 then it wouldn't be in her milk and that would have been a problem.

Othersideofthechannel · 31/03/2011 11:46

Juule, do BF mothers get questioned on their diet and regular blood tests in the UK?
I got regular blood tests during pregnancies in France but not while I was BF. Although I was advised to eat plenty of calcium rich foods.

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