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Court backs decision to bar Christian foster couple

777 replies

hymie · 28/02/2011 16:51

Should Christians be stopped from fostering because of their faith/belief?

LINK

OP posts:
GrimmaTheNome · 04/03/2011 16:22

Better with this couple, if in light of the judgement they realise they should comply with the laws of the land.

scurryfunge · 04/03/2011 16:23

You need to read the thread really, legover.

evilpoptart · 04/03/2011 16:24

You're right, Grimma.

Have a lovely weekend, ladies. Wine

carminaburana · 04/03/2011 17:27

Grimma - the debate - hypothetical or not, was based on the link in the op. This thread proved that a large proportion of people were more than happy to see this couple banned from fostering.

In fact, some people were so happy my phone almost exploded from orgasmic pleasure -

GrimmaTheNome · 04/03/2011 17:30

The debate moved on when it became clear that link was a distorted view. Debates on MN do that, you know.

carminaburana · 04/03/2011 17:35

Yes, you're right.

And thank you for the updated links.

alemci · 04/03/2011 17:46

maybe on this forum but does it really represent what everyone thinks in the real world. I think it is a shame.

LoopyLoopsHulaHoops · 04/03/2011 17:50

"Would children in Social care be better off with this couple or better off left in care ?"

This couple ARE care. What do you mean? Try to remove the ridiculous Dickensian view that some people have of small children rotting in orphanages and children's homes for years. This doesn't happen in this country. Read back over the thread for the many pages of discussion and statistics on the subject.

thefirstMrsDeVere · 04/03/2011 19:03

I didnt realise it was Mumby. He has been very important in my life. Without him things would have been very much harder for us.

BecauseImWorthIt · 04/03/2011 19:28

Well, legoverlil appears to have only joined Mumsnet yesterday, which would explain why he/she doesn't know Lenin!

Could I please, politely, ask that if you're new to this thread that you do us all the courtesy of reading the whole thread before you post?

Deny1 · 04/03/2011 19:34

Christians should not have to water down their faith and what the Bible says. I am a Christian with Muslim friends and we agree that we would say the same thing as this couple.
Is this not a Christian Country?!
Is the Queen not the Head of the Church of England?!

BecauseImWorthIt · 04/03/2011 19:41

I'm not really sure it is a Christian country.

Yes, the Queen is the head of the Church of England.

But what on earth does that have to do with this thread? We're talking about issues that are to do with the law.

And who said anything about Christians having to water down their faith?

scurryfunge · 04/03/2011 19:42

Another new poster who hasn't read the thread!

BecauseImWorthIt · 04/03/2011 19:46

Looks like we're not really a Christian country

alemci · 04/03/2011 20:17

traditionally we are a christian country and our laws have been built on this so I think it is relevant.

BecauseImWorthIt · 04/03/2011 20:19

But our current laws are not, so why is this relevant?

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 04/03/2011 20:28

Traditionally, we held slaves (as recommended in the Bible.) We don't any more. Things move on, and society is becoming ever more secular. Our laws should respect that.

GrimmaTheNome · 05/03/2011 00:37

I'd like to quote a bit from this - a christian - which I think was linked to by someone else higher up the thread:

Christians need to grow up and realise (a) that they no longer live in a country which gives the Christian faith a pre-eminent position in the jurisprudence of the land (the judgement in para 30 recognises that this has been the case for at least a century) and that therefore (b) there is an obligation, as Jesus instructs us, to render unto Caesar things that belong to Caesar. At the end of the day, those who wish to represent a non-Christian state (and foster parents are representatives of the state) need to fulfil various obligations to that state which owe more to what Caesar desires rather that what God ordains. To be a foster carer is not a right and therefore a Christian?s liberty is not being constrained if the state rules that a particular couple cannot be foster carers because their views conflict with the environment that the state wishes the children in its care to be raised in.

PictureHouse · 05/03/2011 01:00

Wow, this thread has really moved on quickly! So many posts to get through...

First of all, whilst there is the right to religious belief, there is a) no right to look after someone else's child, and b) certainly no right to impose your own moral beliefs upon children who are not your own. That is what is at issue. Can you impose your moral and religious beliefs on children who are not your own against the will of those who have parental responsibility and are trying to ensure that they grow up having all their possible needs met? (The state will ensure that a child has their spiritual needs met by making sure they can practice their religion - but it cannot think of spiritual needs in terms of the soul etc.)

It really does seem to me quite obvious that the state, which now affords protection and respect to gay people, would now require that those children in its care are afforded this respect should they turn out to be gay - and the age of the child does not matter at all. You can know that people think being gay is wrong before you even realise that you're gay. Then you realise that that thing people think is wrong is what you are.

At the end of the day the rights of the children come first. These children can then grow up and adopt homophobic views if they wish - that is their right. However, then they in turn will not have the right to be able to impose them on children who are not their own against the wishes of those with parental authority. If they have their own children - well, then they will have parental prerogative.

The couple have the right to their beliefs, but not the right to tell them to someone else's child against the wishes of those who hold parental responsibility. And the state has to protect the child's rights over those of the adults who do not in fact have any rights over the child.

What the bible says, whether homosexuality is right or wrong - this is irrelevant. The state has to bring up the children in its care and give them all the protections of the land - which includes being able to be gay without fear or harrassment. The state also has to make sure that the child can practice their own religion without fear or harrassment. Foster parents therefore need to be flexible to the different needs of the children in their care - whatever their own beliefs - because it is the state's responsibility to protect said children's rights to practice their religion or grow up to be gay without having unrelated adults' views telling them it's sinful or that their religion is pathetic (for example).

It's a matter of who has juridiction over the child. And someone who is fostering does not have the sort of jurisdiction over a child that would make it permissible to tell them that homosexuality is morally wrong.

LeninGrad - yes, I had that too. Section 28 didn't help!

BecauseImWorthIt · 05/03/2011 01:22

Hurrah! Good post, picturehouse

LeninGrad · 05/03/2011 07:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

legoverlil · 05/03/2011 07:40

Does that philisophy also apply to being neutral about brussel sprouts ?

legoverlil · 05/03/2011 07:44

Try to remove the ridiculous Dickensian view that some people have of small children rotting in orphanages and children's homes for years

Well actually the 21st century equivalent is the reality for many many kids that stay in institutions for years.

Still, they are better off there than being with a proven foster couple that might have the temerity to tell them that the church frowns upon them sticking other mens cocks in their botty.

LeninGrad · 05/03/2011 07:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

legoverlil · 05/03/2011 07:57

Well thats basically what it's about...the kids don't give a flying fig about 'minority' rights ffs.