Mums neglecting their children by spending too much time on the internet

[EdieSedgwick]

Sorry for the Daily Mail link....

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1355346/Twitter-mothers-spend-hours-blogging-neglect-children.html

Now stop reading this and neglecting that child of yours...

DS1 and 2 have not long left for school. DS3 is glued to big cook little cook, and I've just explained why little cook said "back in a jiffy" before he's actually left.

LadyintheRadiator, of course it's nothing you've done/not done. Underlying difficulties with acquiring speech and language change the whole dynamic. However, there is a large and growing body of research that when children are developing along typical lines the type and quality of early language input (whether at home/in daycare etc) has a deep and long-lasting impact on language development, impacting upon vocabulary and literacy throughout the school years.

For different but related reasons, there is an emphasis on adult-child interaction in early intervention for speech and language ("It takes two to talk"/"More than Words" etc) because language development is an interactive process and adult-child interaction is a dynamic e.g. if a child has an underlying difficulty it may alter the dynamic between and adult and child in a way that reduces language experience e.g. what do you talk about to your child when they can't talk to you and are immensely frustrated at their difficulties?

I'm guessing you know all this stuff, but I think it's worth pointing out that adult input does make a difference to a child's language abilities but is not the whole picture by any means.

Ladyradiator - I wasn't self congratulating - I've been extremely fortunate that one area my children have never had any difficulty or delays with is speech and language.

I was answering the point about them learning grammar and word meaning when you're on the internet v doing housework, or reading, or any other activity where you may ignore you children.

I'm not sure what the difference between saying "uh uh" or "hang on a minute I'm busy" while surfing the internet and doing it while ironing, or reading is in relationship to speech and language development.

I'm on here way too much, that is a fact. However, I've been a SAHM for x years now, and am bored rigid. If I couldn't get on here to talk to other people I think my brain would probably dribble right out of my ears.

Again, Baroque the article was about emotional development. Reduced language exposure would be an issue regardless of what you were doing.

However, there is probably still a difference. If you spend an hour on the internet, say, and do your online banking, answer your work emails, muck about on MN, email a friend to arrange dinner, update some references on a work document etc, you are doing many different tasks which all pof which look exactly the same to your young child and conceptually, underlay sentences like:
"Mummy's playing/typing on the computer"
"Mummy's busy"
"In a minute" etc - all pretty much related to the same thing, with no reference really to what you actually did (which they can't really perceive).

If you spent an hour at home and also did the same number of tasks e.g. phoned the bank, cleared up after breakfast, swept the floor, picked up the post from the hall and fed the cat, they are observing the interaction of humans/objects and different actions, laying the foundations for a greater range of vocabulary and sentence structure e.g.
Mummy is on the phone
Mummy is wiping the table
Mummy is picking up the dishes
Mummy is washing/scrubbing/rinsing the cup/plate/spoon/fork/knife
Mummy is sweeping the floor
Mummy is putting the rubbish in the bin
etc etc.

Even if you say nothing during this time, your child will pick up discrete aspects to each of these activities (e.g. will see a transition between washing and drying/different objects involved), which then act as a foundation for language (conceptual/prelinguistic level). If you (or anyone else) does then say anything about any of these things, there is a template there e.g. you say "hang on a second, just got to rinse these cups", your child will look at you and at what's happening and back at you and associate these words. They may then see the same activity elswhere and they will associate them e.g. washing up at home/dad's/nursery/school. It happens in miliseconds yet is a fundamental aspect of how we learn.

In an online interaction, it's a lot less obvious. You are doing different things but it always looks more or less the same. You will be less likely to mention any words that are specific to what your child can see you doing e.g. if you say "just doing the online banking", what sense does that make to a very young child? If you have older children who have been in a bank or heard about banking at school or have experience of money and relate it to banking, yes.. but for an under 3, the mechanism by which they learn words relates to the "here and now"/immediate context, so it's so much white noise.

If you are online for ten minutes and do all those other things as well, it's probably a non-issue. If it becomes something happening over an extended period of time.. well.. I think it could be very different, potentially.

All theoretical of course.. but based on what I know about how language works in the very young. Again, it may not be that it has negative consequences per se, it is a massive shift though and as yet we don't really know enough about the potential for it to impact on these aspects of development, I'd say.

See, this is why I became a web developer. I can sit on my arse at my laptop doing whatever I want and if anyone questions it I just say it's work

So it's the time you spend doing something that they can't equate/rationalise then.

So when I start my next course in May if I sit down for an hour and bury my head in my books......how is "study" mean anything more to a 2/3yr old than seeing me tapping away at the keyboard (if I'm simply surfing) - if I'm doing my other stuff DS's often watch me so can see.

Or if I sit down in a middle and bury my head in a magazine for an hour and say "uh huh" "in a minute" to DS3 for the next hour....

Is that any better than if I were to say "uh huh" "in a minute" for an hour while I'm on here (aside from the fact that I've had several converation while I've been on here this morning, in between housework)

"If you have older children who have been in a bank or heard about banking at school or have experience of money and relate it to banking, yes.. "

see I don't understand that - my children have all gone to the bank with me since they were tiny. I'm sure to them me standing at the counter in the bank is no different to the post office, or even a checkout (especially if I'm given a receipt or take money away with me).

One of DS2's first words was "Halifax" (came out as "huhflax" as I was there so often when he was tiny due to financial circumstances.

I'm pretty sure that at 1/2/3yrs old (and even now approaching 4, and for DS2 7) all they see is me dragging round them round town doing pointless tasks...

If i'm online and the kids ask what i'm doing i say ...i'm writing a message to aunty whoever....look at these photos of your friends that live squillions of miles away......what shopping shall we order...look at this bedding for you room, shall we go and buy this for your birthday blah blah blah.. Not all technology means you are neglecting your kids.

I 'neglect' my kids far more and playgroups and softplay areas where they bugger off for 2 hours and only come to me for a drink of juice. Would the Daily Mail like to write an artcile about that, analyse it and slag of my neglectful parenting Kids are happy as larry!

i too am actually neglecting my customers
i only MNet at work occasionally after DS is in bed but generally just at work.

[bored with job emoticon]

"One of DS2's first words was "Halifax" (came out as "huhflax" as I was there so often when he was tiny due to financial circumstances."

See, that's the point. It's the interaction of experience and language models in the environment in action. Another child who didn't spend a huge amount of time in a bank would not have this word at this early stage. Input is a major factor here.

I doubt very much you spent a great deal of time "teaching" your son that word e.g. getting down on his level, pointing to the bank, saying: "Look, it's the HALIFAX! Can YOU say HALIFAX?". He was there, you used the word in context e.g. "I'm just going to nip into the Halifax", he worked it out. He may VERY WELL have added to his understanding of the word the idea that the Halifax is a really boring place where mummy talks to the man at that early age.. but this is a basic level of word understanding, a hook for later learning e.g. building knowledge that the Halifax is something where people talk/work/queue/has no toys/children can't play etc. Then, on another occasion, you might go in to get money from the counter. This becomes added to the idea of "Halifax". Money is also seen in other contexts, like shops. Experience builds, without us ever having to explicitly teach anything.

Language starts at a basic descriptive level. As it develops, it becomes more reflective e.g. the object/experience does not only have a word to describe it, but you can describe THAT word too e.g. "Halifax" equals "boring". In time, you can add more information to this e.g. "Halifax is boring and takes ages and I can't do anything I want so I am going to chuck a fit if my mother mentions it when we are in town". Links are being made all the time.

So exactly, to a young child, study will probably mean = "mummy doing boring things" in a qualitative way, but there are other links being made e.g. this one involves books, this one involves a magazine with pictures of people I also see sometimes on the telly (as the child gets older), this one involves other people, this one doesn't.

"Pointless" is an adult construct in this context. Kids are like sponges, taking in all sorts of things that we don't tend to notice as adults - spotting patterns, working out what things go together, wht things don't, expanding initially basic knowledge of the world. To a certain extent, it happens automatically - but if you didn't speak around your child at all e.g. you didn't say: "we've just got to nip into the Halifax", it would mean that they didn't know that particular word. This applies to all levels of vocabulary learning - if you haven't heard it, you can't link it to what you know, you don't use it, you won't have a very good understanding of that word.

And absolutely, technology does not have to involve neglect.. but it can do. And I have been guilty of that, I know I have.

He is asleep now though!

but he could just have easily have said "bank" or "bills" when I told him what I was doing online it would have had just as little meaning to him, and would have just been another word to his vocabulary.

And re the =boring thing - that for DS2 includes anything that isn't going to Morrisons to buy food - post office, bank, council offices, - it's all boring.

I still maintain though having read that article that anyone that spends THAT level of time online and equals it as the same as "off line" interaction with people are barking though - so this is all kind of irrelevant.

Yes I could have switched off the computer this morning, but I would have still have ended up wearing the pink yellow hat as a prize for thinking of the best way to get rid of the invisible monster on the sofa, I would have got just as little housework done, and DS3 would still have carried on killing the monster with the santa hat.

I would just have buried my head in a book, or sat down and filled in a pile of forms that need filling (that's this afternoon's job) - they're for a variety of things - not sure DS3 will quite grasps that one is to pay for photos of his brother, 2 are to complete the registration for my OU courses, another is a CRB form

I'm not neglecting the children - I'm neglecting work

"And absolutely, technology does not have to involve neglect.. but it can do"

As can anything really.

I doubt my DS'2 aged under 3 really picked up on the difference between a novel, a OU course book and a magazine. Though my last course material had plenty of pictures of people in it - as it was about Health and Social care.

If every time you went online, you said: "I'm going to do the banking", then it would be highly likely that the word "banking" would become associated with being on the computer.

I suppose what I'm saying is that in terms of colour/texture/action/movement, the computer presents in quite a static way which does impact on how much attention a young child gives it e.g. they are habituated to it.

What's striking is that even though children hear very different words in their environment, there are themes that emerge from studies of early vocabulary that have been static for the last 200 years e.g. mama, dada, baba, car, ball, book, doll, eyes, nose, no, mine etc. Individual children may have additional words or unusual additions but usually this is in addition to the "core" early vocabulary (if things are developing along normal lines). What these vocabularies tell us is that language not only starts from the highly personal and relevant and gradually becomes more abstract but there there are certain things that children are "on the look out for" - watch all circles be called balls, or vehicles be called cars etc. Young children tend to talk about things that are meaningful to them BUT also things that catch their eye - shape, movement, sound (baa baa, miaow), ownership e.g. mama for mama's book etc.

Variety of experience makes a big difference. It's another piece of the puzzle. If you spent several hours a day ironing, or filling in forms, or online, or reading, all of those things have the potential to be limiting of experience which in turn can limit language (particularly if there is little talk around them).

It's just common sense when all is said and done. If you sat in one room all day with your child doing one thing with minimal interaction with them, it's going to reduce their opportunities to learn on all levels. If there's balance, that's different.

However, like NorthernLurker, I know that a great deal of my time online/on a computer is borne out of a desire for social contact/intellectual stimulation. I've been to a Stay and Play group this morning but I can't talk on this type of level there and I am easily bored and frustrated. Maternity leave has finished and I don't know many other people who are not working, today. So here I am.

I could be studying.. that would exercise my mind. I would miss the responsiveness/social contact of a discussion forum though..

Even if you took the internet away....I'm curious to know how many parents would spend every single minute interacting with their children......it has replaced other tasks and chores .....we're not nursery or pre-school....we're parents that have things to do in the home, for ourselves and our children. This may of may not involve PC's.....we can;t be doing painting, colouring and storytelling all day, all week!

"I doubt my DS'2 aged under 3 really picked up on the difference between a novel, a OU course book and a magazine. Though my last course material had plenty of pictures of people in it - as it was about Health and Social care."

They will do, though.. just in a different way to your adult understanding of these differences e.g. novel - smallish, lots of writing, no pictures/OU course book, bigger, different type of paper, lots of boxes, mum has it out when she's on the computer etc, she looks at it intently. Magazine: lots of pictures, flicked through quickly, cup of tea beside it.

This stuff happens in MILISECONDS. It is innate and happening on an ongoing basis. Could your child name these as "novels", "magazines" and "course books" - maybe not. This involves a level of subcategorisation that may be a bit much at this stage. Could they tell you that they are things you read? Should be able to, at 3. Could they define them as examples of the category? Highly unlikely - this is a developing skill across the lifespan. However, we know that kids do pick up on what happens in the home with reference to reading and that there are differences in reading levels where homes have a lot of different types of literature about the place and those who do not. My 14 month old can pick up a book, he knows to turn it the right way round, he knows how to turn the pages, he now points to pictures and says words e.g. "ball"/"car"/"fish". He knows that if he hands me a book I will read it with him, tell him words when he points to the pictures and that these things relate to real life. There are many children in the UK who go to school who have no books in their home who do not have these skills. The disparity IS there at 3.. and all of this underlying experience DOES make a difference. This is before we even talk about how watching you study will, in time, relate to their concept of learning and its value etc.

In about Year 2, your dc will be expected to know words like novel/magazine.. and having had concrete experience of them in the home will add to their understanding of those words and their ability to access the higher level/more abstract learning about them - why people read them, what they are for, reading for information vs reading for pleasure.

You may doubt it, but if you think about it, it's common sense. I don't know the word for novel, magazine or course book in Spanish but I could recognise them as what they are based on what they look like and my past experience/experience in my home language.

littlemissindecisive, I think one of the great fallacies/guilt trips of modern parenting is that adult-child interaction has to be some sort of Ofsted-approved all-singing, all-dancing "learning experience".

You can get on and do chores and your children will learn from that as much as they will learn from you sitting down and reading them a book. They'll just learn something different. You can chat to your friends while they play on the floor and no, they won't understand a huge amount of the language you use when you are moaning about your boss or chatting about fashion, but they will pick up other stuff - that you are taking turns, looking at the person etc, what they need to do to get your attention etc. And occasionally, they may point excitedly at something and say something and you will probably respond or tell them to wait if you are busy.

All of this is learning. So is being on the computer. My 14 month old will moan at me if I pick up the laptop and will come over and pull out the plug. He will often bring over a book or a toy and pull me onto the floor if that doesn't work! He's learned that I am not so good at responding when I'm online and he is letting me know that he doesn't like it.

I just know that I'm not as responsive online as I would be if he were pulling me away from something else.. because I feel I am "chatting" and need to finish etc/be polite. However, he can't see the social convention unfold in this instance.

Again, I will reiterate - it's all about balance. He is napping now so I will rant away to my heart's content but I have decided having had this chance to reflect on it that I really need to spend less time on the internet. And I don't think I'm even a heavy user!

I think anyone who uses a forum knows there ARE people who are online all the time and it is possible that some of them (all normal disclaimers apply) are lonely and in need of social support and withdraw into the computer and this might impact upon their availability for their kids. The loneliness/boredom/isolation is the real issue of course - not the computer. You could obsessively clean your house as a coping mechanism with your kid in a playpen and it would be bad.. but there are more of us isolated and using this to communicate than before, so I think it's worth thinking about.

Magazine: lots of pictures, flicked through quickly........I don't buy that sort of magazine on the rare occasion I do actually buy magazines

One of my unit last year was done entirely online, the whole thing, not a single book in sight. Another I had gather together what the DS's thought was junk mail (they nearly threw it all in the recycling for me ).

I know what they're expected to know in YR2......I thought we were talking about under 3's . That's a whole 4yrs + age difference.

Of course while we've been debating this we could both of been doing something much more time wasting productive

"My 14 month old will moan at me if I pick up the laptop and will come over and pull out the plug. He will often bring over a book or a toy and pull me onto the floor if that doesn't work! He's learned that I am not so good at responding when I'm online and he is letting me know that he doesn't like it."

Right - so please don't extrapolate from your experience that everyone that posts online, especially the proflic posters have that problem.

When I was ill (with depression) yes they did that to me, but they did it while I was lying on the sofa doing bugger all as well - so somewhat different I think and nothing to do with the internet.

If my children want me to leave the computer and/or talk to them then I do, though they may have to wait if I'm "doing" stuff as opposed to just whiling time away while they amuse themselves.

If you feel it's a problem for you then, yes doing something about it is probably a good idea (though from experience I can warn you it's easy to find something else that's just as easy to ignore them with, and for them not to "understand" what you're doing).

The Daily Heil is absolutely right.

Self-sacrifice is at the core of motherhood. Mothers should have no interests or needs other than those oriented toward fetching and carrying for their families.

Any behaviour that deviates from this is directly responsible for teenage pregnancies, the hole in the ozone layer (which btw is a lie), the rise in knife crime, all instances of paedophilia ever, most types of cancer and the collapse of the British Empire.

Get offline now, you lazy caaaahs, and do some Hoovering.

littlemiss - when we were tiny, my mother used to put us into a playpen in one room and go and get on with stuff in another, usually the kitchen. One of the memories she has is suddenly being able to hear my sibs much better, looking around and discovering that they had shuffled the playpen between them to the door of the dining room, and were jammed into the corner that they had shoved through the door so they could see her in the kitchen.

My point there is that she was effectively "ignoring" them and not interacting with them at all - they were left to play in the playpen (and they were lucky, there were two of them!) while she did stuff elsewhere.

When did the change happen? When did people get so involved with their DC? And I'm not saying it's a bad thing, just that in the early 70s it was probably quite normal to do what my Mum did - and now that would probably be seen as tantamount to neglect!

"Of course while we've been debating this we could both of been doing something much more time wasting productive"

I know though I will come out of the closet and say I am supposed to be researching and writing a presentation on vocabulary learning so I am, erm, trying to kill two birds with one stone

The point with reference to Year 2 is that these words build on earlier learning/experiences. Vocabulary learning starts with the basics e.g.

1 - generic concept of "car" for all vehicles
18 months to 2 - knows that car is a specific word for a type of vehicle e.g. "car, tractor, truck" are different.
2-3 - what can you drive? a car
3-4 - a car is a... vehicle
Older - parts of a car - steering wheel, bonnet, brakes etc
Older again - cars have different names - mini/Ferrari. Some are cool, some are "bangers"
Older again - suspension, brake fluid (other stuff - I am not a driver! Lol)

At secondary/higher level ed, it starts to become more specialist so that your vocabulary reflects the subjects you take/hobbies you have e.g. if you were a Top gear nut you could probably add layers and layers of information about cars which I don't know as a non-driver but might not be able to define, say: "auditory analysis".

Children who go to school without these experiences e.g. who have not read or held books etc are playing catch up. The teacher asks about books at home and they can't take part. They can't give examples from personal experience or understand the words that are being used. They don't really take away the learning from the lesson. They struggle to understand. They zone out, become disengaged. They can't infer what the teacher is talking about when they give clues e.g. "I'm thinking about something that your mum might read when she's had a very long day and wants to relax with a cup of tea".

Happens all the time. It really does. I have worked in groups at secondary level where kids who can tell you exactly the impact of VAT on selling used cars but can't tell you what an audience is. They are typical language learners, it's just their experiences have been different and now lock them out of a curriculum that relies on a particular type of language e.g. they have basic interpersonal communication and vocabulary relevant to their own lives, but that's not valued in the curriculum which demands a very particular type of language use.

It starts before 3. If you go to school without basic vocabulary, you run the risk of being locked out of learning. It's often social/political/cultural/class-related, of course but that's for another day's work

can we change the "car" thing please - I can't relate - was doing all of your "older and older again things" long before he started school