New childcare study shows that....

[ladbrokegrove]

the under thress do best when looked after by their mums. Can't do links but it's front page Observer. I'll retreat without saying what I think about this one!

WH phone in on Wednesday for your views - 0800 044 044 any time between now and then.

It was irritating that fathers aren't mentioned (or do they figure under 'other relatives'?). But I didn't see the survey as a criticism of women going to work, more a justification for supporting childminders and/or more individualised care (it was commissioned by the National Childminding Association after all).

I was surprised at the prejudice against childminders from people in my NCT group - there was a stereotype of women with fags hanging out of their mouths followed by a gaggle of unruly children, versus spotlessly clean modern nurseries with the latest in art facilities and educational toys, etc. The childminders I have met (OK, three!) are educated women with large, beautifully clean houses, usually SAHMs themselves committed to giving children positive individual attention, and so organised at being self-employed that they earn a much better wage than a nursery nurse. I'm just interested to see them getting a much better press these days because their work has not been valued enough.

There just aren't enough good childminders but there is plenty of nursery provision. But if the status of childminders is raised by surveys like this it may encourage more women and men to do it. You can take up references and read their Ofsted reports to avoid the bad ones if the government is doing its job properly.

isreal kids must all be in a terrible state then as over there everyone leaves their kids in daycare from 3 mths old [average age] and do right through until they go to school at six. plus it was only a few years ago that in kibbutz all children lived in the nursery and slept there and when parents came in from work they had them home [around 1 oclock] but then the kids went to sleep in the nursery every night but now they sleep with their parents but i dont find israeli kids maladjusted [ i`m married to a grown up version] i find them very sociable , lively interactive people who are warm and friendly and have one of the best levels of education and attainment levels with a high level of drs, scientists, lawyers etc..in other words , degree level, high attainers. i think england protection over kids is going to far , you cant do anything here without it being wrong.what is going on in this country, no wonder there are so many pepole emigrating!

I feel like I'm a mixture of all sides of the story at the moment. Was a lawyer am now a SAHM looking for a part time job which seems to not exist. Have one child at nursery 3 days a week and one 1 year old at home with me.
Why have I been told by my recruitment consultant that no-one will employ me if I say I need to leave at 3pm to pick up child and so I can spend some time with him of a day? Why are employers so unchild friendly when reports like this say children need their mum's? Am truly fed up with it.

Interesting what you say about childminders muminlondon- there's a definite class issue about using them. They seem to be seen as a working class form of childcare, probably because they're usually (though not always) cheaper.

Someone I know said that she'd considered becoming a childminder but had decided against it as all the children would be from working class families who would want to eat rubbish and swear and she didn't want her children to be influenced by that!

Yes, that's fascinating and spot-on.

My childminder is fantastic. I chose her because she does what my DS (and now DD) needs, e.g. 3-4 hours sleep in a cot. Different children visiting, lunch as requested, outings to toddler groups, etc. etc.

At the local favoured nursery where the rest of the NCT group go, the children have 45 minutes a la Gina Ford 11-45 until 1 on mats on the floor. They are then pushed around the town in double buggies by very bored looking 18 year olds.

Don't think we'd be classed as working class either. The children have never heard me swear and they don't eat rubbish (she says trying to conceal the chocolate she is eating from DS).

Don't mean to hijack this thread - honestly, I PROMISE I'll make my £25 media donation to Mumsnet - but I'm desperately searching for people with just the views you're expressing here for a piece in the new Family section of the Guardian for this Saturday (but because of early deadlines, alas, am needing to get it all organised tonight and tomorrow morning). Anyway, I'm looking for people to tell it like it is about why they work and use childcare...in particular I'm searching for...

1. A woman who uses a nursery for three, four or five days a week for her baby while she works

2. A father who's looking after his child or children full time

3. A mother who uses a hotch potch of childcare arrangements (that's me, but I don't want to write about myself because I do it too often and it gets boring) which she cobbles together to cover for herself while she works and she needs to work because her family need her income

and

4. A single mother who's been encouraged (maybe through a govt scheme) to go back to work and leave her young child with a carer or nursery.

Idea of the piece is to put this research into the context of real life, which is exactly what you've been doing here which is why I'm posting this.

What I'm asking for is a short chat on the phone (anytime that suits you, I work from home so happy to talk late at night or early morning, or whenever)about what you think of this research, and then time permitting we'd send a photographer to take a picture of you and your child or children some time on Tuesday.

I'm at [email protected] or on 020 8675 3423

muminlondon, on womens hour p leach said the findings on men/fathers wasnt ready for release at this time and j murray said was it not a mistake to publish the findings in stages, thus fuelling the "debate" with only a narrow picture of the broad spectrum of childcare and their findings. leach kinda hmmmm and said maybe.

Don't they say mothers because the majority of STH's are mother and not fathers? It's obvious they mean the 'primary carer' which can be mum or dad, but is more often the mum.

Saying that, it does too often give any excuse to mum-bash as seen in Oliver James' column in the Observer sundays. That man twists my melons as much as he twists the facts.

THanks soapbox

think it would also depend on how fked up the mother is whilst looking after the child. i was obviosly a multicoloured fuit loop with lots of prozac to help me get through the day.....best person for caring for 3 under 5's? absofkinglutly i was thier mother!! am sure they didn't notice the manic rocking in the corner and the white knuckle clutching tablets.

Jojo, have just left a message for you, happy to crap on about my views if you want them, I have a nearly 2yo in full time nursery, an 8yo in after school care and a partner who was a sahd for most of last year. We both work full time atm.

JoJo - I don't fall into any of your categories so don't think I can help but good luck with the piece.

I think the key point that is being missed is...where is the research / evidence / what you will that makes a positive link between early development and anything else later in life??? One of the most intelligent, successful, happy, kindest, funniest and most generous people I know as an adult barely spoke a word until he was 3 years old.

My main disappointment with this researh is the way in which it has been reported by the Observer. Supposedly a quality broadsheet that resorted to a sensationalist headline and over-credence to a piece of non-peer reviewed research - presumably just because it was headed up by Penelope Leach. Where was the discussion and the analysis?

QUOTE - "I think the key point that is being missed is...where is the research / evidence / what you will that makes a positive link between early development and anything else later in life??? One of the most intelligent, successful, happy, kindest, funniest and most generous people I know as an adult barely spoke a word until he was 3 years old"

Great point Ruddyduddy - I never thought about that before.

ooop s- I seem to have changed your nickname to something more commical. My apologies

What suggestions do people have on steps the Government could take to help parents raise children? I think the Govt should make employers hold one parents job open for a maximum of 2 years post birth. The Govt should give parents an interest free loan to tide them over until they return to work. A bit like the student loan system. If people can have a loan to study subjects that are not necessary to the continuation of society then people should be given a loan to care for a child. I think it should only apply to one child though. I?m not against students I used to be one.

I had a choice after having my DD either sell my home and give up work and live off benefits once the house equity ran out, and never resume my career. Or go to work full time even though it is for little financial gain. After childcare, mortgage etc means I end up with £30 a week ?profit?. Although I end up with little extra in cash through working I have a pension fund, BUPA, life assurance and critical illness insurance which to me are worth the heartache of leaving my DD each and every day.

Someone made a point about childminders being perceived as a working class form of childcare and that has been my experience to date.

I looked up and rang a whole list of childminders before returning to work and I was disappointed by the quality of the ones I saw.

Most didn't drive and therefore couldn't do the school run, took their maximum alloted number of kids, one had realistic-looking toy daggers and guns (which I don't allow DS) and the TV on the whole time.

I got the impression that for most of these childminders, they were doing it for the money and the kids were left to entertain themselves.

At DD's nursery, the staff are not 18-year olds, they're mature women who've been there awhile, they cluck over her, there is a cook who comes onsite to do the cooking so the staff do no cooking but help feed the kids and cleaners come in in the evening to do the cleaning so the staff who are responsible for looking after the kids do just that.

My very long winded point is this - it doesn't matter whether you pick a childminder or nursery as long as you are happy that your child is getting the quality of care that you would be pleased with.

The staff at your nursery sound nice. Maybe the manager/owner of the nursery knows how to pick good people so the turnover of staff is low.

Perhaps it's because we live in a middle class area but our childminder is so completely the opposite of the ones you saw! Although she has to structure her day around the school runs, the day's activities are organised around the children: making cakes, dressing up, impromptu music/ dancing sessions, drawing and messy play, playgroup, library and playground visits, etc. If she needs to go shopping she makes it into a 'trip' like I would do. I'm sure you're right that there are more lazy ones and ones that you wouldn't trust, but I've heard of other lovely childminders too. We probably pay the same as we would for a nursery place.

I think it is an interesting point about grandparents. I have one friend whose mother looks after her child while mine is at nursery part-time as I have no willing grandparents. She tells me all the statistics. Apparently my son is likely to commit suicide in his teenage years etc.

The staff at my nursery are brilliant. I saw her mother grab her little boy and say 'you silly little boy, you are always doing this do you want a smack.'

If she had been a childminder she would have been in serious trouble but she was the child's grandmother and my friend just ignored afterall she doesn't have to pay anything so she never intervenes. How can that be better?

Incidentally did you see wife swap check the difference between a working mother and SAHM. Both extremes but neither had really got it perfect.

Sorry thought I would say that not all grandparents are like this. Some of my friends have excellent parents. (before I get battered) My DM works four days a week so would not ask her and she has said she would prefer they went to nursery in case they just watched telly all day.

She worked nights when we were little in a factory and found it very difficult to cope with looking after us during the day and then worked as an insurance collector leaving my sister in the car while she went to see clients. She says herself she would have been done today. No childcare in those days so parents had to make do with leaving kids on their own or with neighbours. Imagine what would be thought of that today.