Should we still be encouraging our children to go to university?

[jollydiane]

Dear DC I am sorry that our politicians have completely screwed up you education, this is what you have to look forward to:

1. Student loans or a graduate tax
2. The demand for university places is outstripping the supply
3. If you don?t go to university then you have very little chance of getting a good job as many employers will not look at your CV without a 2:1
4. Living with your parents as you have no chance of saving for enough for a house.

I cannot tell you how cross I am so tell me I am wrong and everything is fine.

foverer I agree I stunned everyone when I said I did not want to go to uni. I was bright enough to know that I was not bright enough to get a degree. I did it the long way round got a job and proved myself. I want my DC to have this option.

"these eminent academics are capable of making decisions about what is valuable."

OK so now we have X factors feeding into how much a University can charge for a course.

1. The "Mickey Mouse" factor of the course.
2. How employable a graduate of the course would be, and that can have nothing to do with the course itself and far more to do with the "name" of the University offering it.

And newly added:

3. Input from academics on what is, and what isn't, valuable.
4. Considerations as to what "spin offs" from the subject might be.

Isn't the whole idea just becoming too complex?

And the bigger name Universities will be able to get enough clout so as to be able to teach what they like while the sort of University that "normal" people can get into will be left with an education system geared up to short term economic goals as that is all the rules would let them fund.

"How did we used to do it?"

We didn't have anything remotely like either the current situation or your proposed solution.

Higher Education has now become a market, and like any market the "a fool and his money are easily parted" rule has come into action.

"Higher Education has now become a market"

And can I just point out that I don't agree with the fact that it has.

I agree with you Claig that the system is in trouble.

It's just that I don't agree with your solution.

BadgersPaws we are refining and fine-tuning the model. The factors contain sub-factors. Now everybody goes to university, whereas before they were split between universities and polytechnics. Presumably it cost less to run courses at these polys than at Cambridge?
The polys were more vocational but still offered non-vocational courses.

Higher education is now a market but like any market it has to be regulated, and things like trading standards and consumer protection legislation should apply. We don't allow electrical retailers to operate on the principle of "a fool and his money are easily parted", why shouldn't we look after people who sign up for football studies at £20,000 a time?

MmeLindt said: "We do not just need doctors and lawyers, bankers and architects. We need builders and nurses, receptionist and salespeople. And we need them to be recognised as equally worthy instead of second class citizens because they have no degree."

And that is just how I feel quite often. I work in retail, have done for years now. I went to university via clearing in a panic, I thought it was the only way. Dropped out as I hated the course. By the time I thought of going back, tuition fees came in. I'd much rather do something I love other than get get treated like crap in the shop I work in from day to day. I have an inkling of what I'd like to do now I'm a bit older and hopefully wiser.

Someone posted that they can "tell" when someone they've met has gone to university. Judging by the appalling grammar and spelling I see on some status updates on FB I'm not so sure I can make the same assertion

I'm not saying that my solution is any good, they are just ideas. There are academics who work in standards bodies like the QCA that are employed to look out for such things. Surely there must be some sort of body that accredits university degrees, or am I able to set up my own university and start charging £20,000 for degrees in swimming studies? Presumably government sets the parameters for these bodies. The buck stops with the government, allowing "fools to be parted" with £20,000 is not acceptable.

You can also get a 'social aspect' by buying a round the world ticket and working your way around the world, or volunteering overseas. You don't need to go to uni to do that.

University should be for highly academic youngsters only, and if their parents cannot help financially the government should subsidies these students. If they can pay EMA for 2 years why can they not extend it for less well off students and not charge them fees.

"Judging by the appalling grammar and spelling I see on some status updates on FB I'm not so sure I can make the same assertion"
varicoseveined, they are the ones that have been

claig - exactly

seriously, I need to stop feeling sorry for myself and do something about my lack of post A level education. It seriously scares me to think I could be hating my line of work for the next 30 years

have you looked at the OU for a degree? I don't know how expensive it is nowadays, but it may be a good way of getting a degree and still working. It will keep your spirits up, knowing that you are going in the right direction.

Isn't opening up our institutions to market forces the way to go though? People don't actually want to end up £50k in debt and unemployable, do they? And the less popular courses will close down, and yes there will be fewer institutions that offer Classics/English/History/Language degrees but that's okay. They're not terribly useful degrees anyway.

but they don't realise that they are going to be unemployable and £50K in debt until it is too late. They do need some career guidance and advice, we can't just let institutions offering football studies proliferate. Many students are already saying that their degrees have been a waste of time, as they stack shelves in Tesco. If we allow this to continue, people will start becoming resentful, just as they did with the negative equity episode. It is not good for society to have people £20,000 in debt and unemployable after being sold the idea of further education being a doorway to success.

You cannot tell who has been to uni by meeting them or speaking to them. What tosh.

I did not go to Uni as I did not know what I wanted to do after Uni. I resisted my mother's urging to get a degree, any degree and went to work in the highlands for a summer. That summer became my Uni-Ersatz and lasted 2 years.

I did an apprenticeship in Germany, which is highly respected, and worked for several years in sales.

The german system also encourages the Zweite Bildungsweg - the second path to education which my DH did

they need to educate themselves, too, though, claig.

you can't go through life blaming others for your poor financial decisions.

like quattro, i also have an English degree, but managed to carve out a decent living by taking legal secretary work whilst studying and then obtaining a paralegal certificate whilst in full-time employment.

later, when i became a mother, i took a department secretarial job in a humanities department of a RG university because the hours were better than legal (DH was SAHD).

i can't tell you the contempt with which my boss, also a degree holder, and i were sometimes treated by some students.

they had the mistaken belief that their degree was certainly going to mean a life of escape from such menial professions as ours and were borrowing left and right (my boss and i had worked through university to avoid debt).

i can't tell you how many former students i ran into in my four years there, post-graduation, working in shops and bars and restaurants i patronised with the money from my peon job.

i had a temp about to start a business course at a new uni. i tried to impress on her the importance of getting a job whilst studying. our over-boss's secretary tried, too, telling her the tale of her own daughter, who started working at Dorothy Perkins at 16, worked all the way up through university getting a business degree, worked afterwards and, at age 30, held a fairly senior position in London for the chain.

but only because she coordinated her degree with valuable work experience.

Too right, MmeL! My ex h is German and my first boyfriend Austrian. The ex h had gone to university, because the skill he wanted, geophysics, was only available there. Peter, however, became a highly-qualified auto mechanic and did not go to university.

BUT both were seen as equally respectable, valuable options.

many people are being deliberately misled by those in the know, they are being taken advantage of. I don't think Scotland allows our system, they probably care a bit more about their young people. GetOrfMoiLand explained how her cousin was encouraged to study football studies at university and is now £20,000 in debt. His parents were chuffed that he would go to one of our esteemed universities, his school wanted to improve their figures on their students who got into university and encouraged him to go, he thought three years of studying football would be great fun. The finance company loved it as he now owes them £20,000. Everyone's a winner except him. Those in the know are turning a blind eye to this and it is becoming more widespread.

"Should we still be encouraging our children to go to university?"

Not for Mickey Mouse degrees in soft subjects or so-called degrees in what, are in fact, business or vocational qualifications.

I still wonder what new research the first Ph.D in Tourism and Leisure or Hair and Beauty will offer the academic world!

I have met a much wider variety of people in the workplace than I ever did at university. It is also perfectly possible to travel the world (and earn some money while you are doing so) without setting foot in a university.

It is not necessary to move to the other side of the country, and have much of the year 'off' in order to train for every single occupation.

It is also more and more possible to study for personal fulfilment through courses like the OU.

Everybody should have access to the education they need. However, the idea that the only way to do this is to follow the standard university model of moving hoards of 18-21 year olds around the country 3 times a year just shows lack of imagination.

The only way I would encourage anyone to go to university would be to do a degree in a maths/engineering/architecture sort of Bachelors degree, or Law/economics/other meaty area.

I would not encourage anyone to go anywhere other than a very well respected university to do anything else -- talking top drawer here. A subject like medieval history in a very selective university would be fine.

In general, I would encourage anyone considering a mickey mouse bachelors degree at a second rate place to think again and come up with a better plan.

Officer training sounds brill, GOML.

Of course, the really rich will be able to avoid this tax by studying abroad. Thus devaluing the kudos of the UK university system even further. Clever..

I would love to see figures on what % of 40% and 50% tax payers have degrees. I think it is probably quite high.

BTW, a degree in football studies might enable the graduate to get a good job in the US, where Major League Football is doing its utmost to promote the sport. Maybe with a further degree in Marketing, Sports Marketing, something like that?

mellifluouscauliflower. I understand the ERASMUS programme offers placements at European Universities. However, British students are less likely to avail themselves of this opportunity because of the language barrier.

European students accessing this scheme and attending British universities don't have that impediment.

Riven: you should tell them to go. No question.

From your posts about them, they sound bright. DD1 is off to Cambridge, right? Your DSs are aiming for RG universities, yes?

There is every chance, Riven, that your DC will be able comfortably to pay off their loans, etc., with that kind of university education behind them.

And what will they do if they don't go? Yes, there's a chance they could work their way up in any given industry. But it might also mean that they miss out on the careers and open doors which a degree leads to. You, more than anyone, should acknowledge that a lifetime on a low income, even if not saddled with debt, could be harder than one with the promise of a better income ahead.

Incidentally, I know several research scientists who earn more than that. A good friend is a cancer research specialist, and she earns nearly 50K, and she's not even a professor. I think it depends on the institution, or specialism.

Also, if your DS decides to become a lecturer in science, rather than a researcher, most universities now have an entry level salary for lecturers of 35K or more.

Scientists working in industry can earn even more. A friend worked for Rolls Royce, and earned plenty!

Another friend studied science, then moved into science & patent law. Again, earning a very very good salary, with sky-high salary opportunities ahead.

Another scientist friend lives off the revenue generated by his patents! He is my age - early 30s. Not bad, eh?

There is LOTS of money to be made by the scientifically minded. Lots and lots.

I understand that the levels of debt faced are frightening. But students with brains and motivation should do well in life, and manage to repay a debt (particularly one that doesn't attract interest at commercial rates) reasonably comfortably.

Is money the sole motive for doing anything?

OK maybe Riven's husband isn't earning megabucks but he's doing valuable work and, depending on his research area, presumably adding something to society that will be remembered long after your average accountant or lawyer is eating dandelions by the roots.