Should we still be encouraging our children to go to university?

[jollydiane]

Dear DC I am sorry that our politicians have completely screwed up you education, this is what you have to look forward to:

1. Student loans or a graduate tax
2. The demand for university places is outstripping the supply
3. If you don?t go to university then you have very little chance of getting a good job as many employers will not look at your CV without a 2:1
4. Living with your parents as you have no chance of saving for enough for a house.

I cannot tell you how cross I am so tell me I am wrong and everything is fine.

"Let's have a regulator who sets limits on the cost of some of these courses. They could set the cost by knowing what the real job prospects for people graduating with these degrees is."

That's just so impractical and so open to political abuse by whoever is nominated as being in charge of making those decisions.

Let's face it Medieval History is not going to be the most employable field, so this "regulator" may slap harsh limits on how much a University can charge for it (even more likely if someone like Ed Balls was in charge given his views). Those limits don't meet the costs, so the University drops the course.

The effect would be that Universities would only be able to teach courses that some regulator had decided were sufficiently employable so as to justify a certain level of tuition fees.

I'm not sure we want our Universities to be turned into that sort of thing.

"In the same way we shouldn't allow them to get into that amount of debt for what we know are sometimes mickey mouse degrees, in order to enrich certain colleges or individuals."

So should we also stop them from spending their money and getting into debt on other "Mickey Mouse" things? If so I nominate clubbing holidays to Spain. And is there then a certain age when you can be trusted to get into debt on "Mickey Mouse" things.

And once again we have that issue where someone has to decide what is and what isn't "Mickey Mouse" and you just know that will be used as a political football.

I think there's a lot to be said for some sort of fee capping mechanism including some recognition of the Universities costs, such as lab costs for science courses.

However if we let an element of "worthiness" creep into that where there's some judgement as to what is a valid course and what isn't then we're going down a very troublesome road.

GetOrfMoiLand you're right, the universities have a responsibility, but the government has an even greater responsibility. They are the ones who have encouraged and allowed this to happen, and now they want to start increasing the fees and start charging even more. At least Dick Turpin had the decency to wear a mask.

mme- "studying for the sake of it shouldn't be encouraged" - couldn't the same be said for secondary education?

"Is meeting friends and experiencing Uni life worth spending thousands of tax payers money, and incurring person debt?" - like they say in the mastercard ads, in my case I'd say it was priceless

BadgersPaws if you want a system without any political interference, then why bother having elections. We know they put pressure on the "independent" bodies to change direction whenever the public realises that standards have plummeted and when the public begin to lose faith in the system. Do you want government to just sit back and fold their hands whilst respected universities start creating degree courses in the teachings of the Moonies and charging top dollar for it? The whole system will sink into disrepute. Getting into £20,000 debt is not the same as blowing £1,000 on a holiday to Ibiza. We are talking serious money, and some people are rubbing their hands and making serious money off of young people.

Oxford, Cambridge and other elite universities will be able to justify fees of £20,000 for medieval studies and people will get employment afterwards, but Rakeitin university won't be able to get away with charging the same fees if they choose to run a degree in medieval studies. They will either have to cut their costs or run degrees in more marketable subjects. They won't like it, they'll be poorer, but our young people won't spend three years studying, come out up to their eyeballs in debt, and spend years at Pizza Hut paying the debt back to enrich Rakeitin and the finance companies who issued the loans.

"Oxford, Cambridge and other elite universities will be able to justify fees of £20,000 for medieval studies and people will get employment afterwards, but Rakeitin university won't be able to get away with charging the same fees if they choose to run a degree in medieval studies. They will either have to cut their costs or run degrees in more marketable subjects."

So only Oxford and Cambridge will be able to offer degrees in subjects like Medieval History?

What I'm objecting to is any change in the system which will basically shut the door on many academic degrees. Even worse it will only allow their teaching at "elite" universities. So aside from some exceptions it will only be the upper classes and public school educated who will be able to get an education in certain academic subjects. How can that be right?

I'm not saying that there isn't a problem with this relentless pressure to get everyone into a University but any solution to that has got to be something that opens doors for the "normal" people of this country and doesn't slam the door in the faces of all but an elite few.

I want loads of people in university and I want it free. I'm not opposed to many of the mickey mouse degrees, but for the sake of the country's interests a regulator should keep an eye on the proliferation of such degrees. Unlike Ed Balls, I don't think medieval studies is mickey mouse. I'm opposed to universities charging such high fees, I think some of them are swinging the lead and have been allowed to get away with it. Most of us are opposed to fat cats swinging the lead in the health service and profiting extortionately from our ill health. I think it is the same for education, let's regulate it. We'll end up in a situation where only the rich will be able to risk taking out such huge loans and we will waste the talent of the country. Let's rein in this endless spiral of fee increases, I don't think they allow the same in Scotland. Why is it anything goes in England? Let's encourage students to study in demand subjects like physics, engineering etc. by making these courses completely free, that will benefit the country and allow people to go to university without paying a penny.

How did we go from a free education system to one where people pay £20,000? Did they implement this while we were sleeping? Is the aim to only allow the rich to receive university education and keep the masses in their place and up to their eyes in debt? Is all the talk of social mobility a load of baloney? Have they overturned everything that people fought for?

I agree with you claig in making in demand subjects which would actually help the economy free.

I have worked in manufacturing/engineering all my life and the whole bloody industry is dying. And any young graduates we take on in this comopany are from overseas.

I can see where you're coming from.

All I'm saying is that I can't see anyway to include any measure of "employability" or "non-Mickey-Mousiness" in the fees that a University can charge that won't lead to the doors being slammed to the less well off who want to study academic subjects.

And thinking some more it will also affect cutting edge scientific studies as well which are by their nature risky and uncertain. Who would have guessed at the employability in the field of computers 60 years ago? The work of Manchester Uni was crucial and may never have happened under any system that includes a factor of "employablity" in determining if they can be taught.

Forevastudent
mme- "studying for the sake of it shouldn't be encouraged" - couldn't the same be said for secondary education?

Secondary education is about building up on the groundwork laid by primary school. The aim should be to give the pupils a deeper understanding of the topics that were introduced in Primary School. This means giving life skills that are necessary for the rest of the children's life.

In secondary school I learnt the basics of accounting, art, cookery, maths, science, languages etc, and was able to further deepen my knowledge of those subjects that interested me, and in which I showed aptitude.

If a school is just offering a place for teenagers to hang out and study "for the sake of it" then it is failing it's students.

As to your comment that a university experience being priceless because of the socialising that can be done there, that truly takes my breath away.

Why should others subsidise thousands of students who are value their education so lowly that they are only in it for the pub crawls?

I have nothing against anyone who enjoys their uni days, but if that enjoyment was all you got out of it, then it was a waste of money. You could have the same kind of experience when working for a couple of summers in France for Eurocamp.

DH also works in engineering and there is a great shortfall of UK engineering graduates - his firm recruits from China, Iran, France and the rest of Europe. Two reasons for this:

1. All the problems with teaching/learning Maths and Physical Science in state schools in the UK
2. A career in engineering was the 10th preferred career of recent engineering graduates in a survey a few years ago. The City grabs many of the best students because it needs numerate graduates and will pay far more than engineering firms.

I have DCs of 23 and 19 and am hearing more and more that the UK is finished and that their generation will have to go abroad to get work.

you're right GetOrfMoiLand, it's an absolute scandal. This country was responsible for many of the inventions across the world, Trinity College, Cambridge has more Nobel prize winners than all of France, and yet our manufacturing/engineering has been destroyed and we are not even educating our future generations. Instead we are selling them mickey mouse degrees which we know will only keep them in debt for years with no way out.

but BadgersPaws these eminent academics are capable of making decisions about what is valuable. How did we used to do it? Pure mathematics has no direct application, but everybody knows that many applied developments are spinoffs from pure mathematics. Medieval studies is a great subject and we want all types of academic subjects, that doesn't preclude some subjects getting extra encouragement for the good of society.

I have worked in aerospace procurement in the past for huge multinationals and had sleepless nights at the outsourcing.

Not only outsourced a whole manufacturing package to a low cost economy, but also outsourced the design. Went from actually being able to see 150 or so engineers working on a particular project, dwindle down to nothing because the work was outsourced to India.

I find it frightening - we are being hit both sides. We have no recruits coming in from our unis (well, we do, but not enough) and we have companies which do not want to support manufacturing in a big way in this country, and are offshoring the whole damn thing.

And aerospace manufacture is supposed to be one oft he UK's 'niche' specialisms.

Not from where I am standing. I have visions of it being like teh automotice industry in 25 years time. A few large concerns left, but the majority of it gone.

Perhaps we are looking at it from the wrong side.

The answer is not legislation that controls which courses the Unis offer, but offering school leavers and decent alternative so that the "mickey-mouse" courses are no longer sought after.

More vocational training is one way of going about this.

How does one become a plumber or electrician at the moment in UK? I lived in Germany for years where a good many school leavers do an apprenticeship - 3 years on the job training with day release at vocational college.

GetOrfMoiLand, it is intentional, they call it globalisation. Wheeler dealer financiers can make a buck anywhere, and where the labour is cheaper is where they will go. They have no interest in the country or its people, they worship Mammon. Now they are even handing out £20,000 loans to students, they've just tapped a new revenue stream.

labour is cheapest

I know.

It's a bit bloody soul destroying when you are watching the industry decay around you.

I now work in the automotive industry (why god why?) and it is worse.

Lots and lots of small suppliers in the midlands (formerly a heartland of small parts manufacture for automotive) going down the swanny.

yes and nobody helps them. They bail out the bankers but let manufacturing sink. It's always been this way.

Every time I hear people talk about Mickey Mouse degrees and how educating a large % of the population to degree level is not worthhile, I think yes it is to avoid a lot of people who think like that.

A degree in Britain is only 3 years. A lot shorter than in many other European countries. Its also normal for people to accept that they pay for their degree. I have 2 degrees which cost me 25K as I am not British.

MME- The social aspect I was refering to was moving hundreds of miles away from anyone I knew and living for a year in a flat with 11 others aged 18-25 from across the UK.

I learned about the daily lives of people from rich and poor backgrounds and people of different faiths.

I learned independence form my parents, budgeting, personal safety, negotiating, conflict management, time management, tolerance and co-operation.

Living with people you wouldn't choose to live with teaches you intangible life skills that I don't think can be replicated in a non-uni environment.

forevastudent
I had a similar experience working in an outdoor centre for two years. I am not saying it is not valuable, but it is not only possible in a uni environment.

People can experience that in the Forces, too, forever. Or a college or trade school if they go into an area that is not offered in their childhood home.

Then maybe these options should be promoted more to 17/18/19 yo's. At that age the only option I though I had was uni.

What I think needs to happen is a change in emloyer attitudes. I want it to be possible for a 16 year old to leave school, go into office job (or what ever) and work their way up. Learn their trade. Progress. I do not want an HR dept to tell me that I cannot look/advertise to anyone without a degree.