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Should we still be encouraging our children to go to university?

124 replies

jollydiane · 15/07/2010 22:37

Dear DC I am sorry that our politicians have completely screwed up you education, this is what you have to look forward to:

  1. Student loans or a graduate tax
  2. The demand for university places is outstripping the supply
  3. If you don?t go to university then you have very little chance of getting a good job as many employers will not look at your CV without a 2:1
  4. Living with your parents as you have no chance of saving for enough for a house.

I cannot tell you how cross I am so tell me I am wrong and everything is fine.

OP posts:
cheesycheddar · 16/07/2010 11:52

When ds1 was born we also opened an account that dh puts £25 a month into (reminder to myself must open one for ds2!) I was hoping that they could use the trust fund to help pay towards their fees. As its looking at the moment the little bit of savings we have put aside for them probably won't even cover their first year fees. I'm hoping that once I get my career back on track we will be able to help more because as it stands we would not be able to contribute at all.

In answer to the OP I would probably only encourage the boys to go to university if the career they wanted to pursue required a university degree i.e. medicine or teaching. Otherwise I would encourage them to do it the hard way like dh and I did which was start work straight from school and study for a degree part time. A degree is no longer an advantage in securing a job, work experience counts for so much more and if you have both you stand a much better chance of being taken seriously.

Coolfonz · 16/07/2010 11:52

Funny how this has all happened during the last 30 years when we have been told the UK has had amazing growth, never been so rich etc.

You know, the invisible hand of the market was going to take care of everything.

Funny how on the European mainland - you know, that economic basket case - university education is still, in the main part, free.

And we can't fund education but we can fund a weapon that would kill - at least - hundreds of thousands of innocent women and kids. We can also fund £20bn (and counting) of wars where around 2mn people are dead.

Funny that.

Callisto · 16/07/2010 13:25

I think it is absolute rubbish that children need a degree otherwise they won't get a good job. Firstly a lot of degrees these days aren't worth the paper they're written on - you might as well buy one on the internet. Secondly, define a good job? Is it one where you earn pots of money? Or is it one that you enjoy and feel satisfied in? Personally I think the second is the true definition, it's just a shame more children don't realise that university isn't the be all and end all.

FioFio · 16/07/2010 13:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

EnglandAllenPoe · 16/07/2010 13:30

It must be so crushing to go through uni and then do a mundane job that does not use your talents

actually, i think 'for three years I had a really amazing time, and made some life-long friends'

which is of great comfort as i pick up the phone in our call centre...

also i haven't repaid my student loan and don't earn enough to (so, not a problem, nor would it be under propsed (though daftIMHO) graduate tax plans...

i would deffo encourage mine to go to unviersity. although with three in three years i don't think we'll be at liberty to support them through it unless our financial fortunes do a rather pleasing volte-face in the next 15 years...

actually statistically it is vitally important for women to get degrees, the disparity in male incomes between grads/non-grads is much less - the income gap for women is vast.

amothersplaceisinthewrong · 16/07/2010 13:32

IMO far too many go to uni these days, hence the inability of the government to fund them like they did a generation ago.

We do not (as Tony Blair seemed to think) need 50% of the population with university degrees, half of which are questionable. We need more apprenticeships and other forms of training. Actually unless you do something vocational like law or medicine, a degree does not train you for a job anyway. As my son who graduated with the requisite 2:1 on Wednesday last is finding out.

EnglandAllenPoe · 16/07/2010 13:35

i will add i think Universities are not focussing their money on things students need but appear to be splashing out on fancy buildings and facilities whilst cutting back on basic provision (particularly
Chemistry departments : my sister wa enraged Exter clsoe the Chemistry dept because they'd run out of money whilst uilding a residential block...)

i didn't pay fees, but i'd be pretty fucked off if i had only for my university to spend them on high-status building projects.

FairyMum · 16/07/2010 13:38

Yes, I want my children to get degrees. A degree/time spent at a university is not just to get a job. It makes you who you are, is a nice transition from being a child/teen at home to being an adult, you make lots of friends, meet people from all over the world, it opens your mind. I know I will be flamed for this, but I can normally tell if a person has been to uni or not when I meet them.

GetOrfMoiLand · 16/07/2010 13:41

My dd is 14 - she has always planned to go to university, however she has had a rethink lately and plans to enter the RAF as an officer when she is 18.

I am slightly upset by this as i always planned for her to go to uni in a traditional fashion (I didn't - had her young then studied for my degrees part time, it was a slog).

However, we have the spectre of my brother who is nearly £20K in debt from his degree.

Ditto a cousin who was stupid enough to choose a useless subject (Football Studies) from a crap ex poly and has almost the same debt and is working in Somerfield.

GetOrfMoiLand · 16/07/2010 13:43

I think valuable degrees from a decent university will always be valued.

Useless degree from the Universoty of Salford in Gambling Studies, for instance, will not be.

TheMoonOnAStick · 16/07/2010 13:46

University is great if it's what you aspire to, but yes I do agree that we need more vocational training.

We also need to stop seeing anyone who does a decent job, but is not in a glittering high flying graduate career, as 'in a mundane job'.

Many many jobs fit into that category. And they are important and people do good worthwhile work in those jobs. We need office workers, plumbers and dustmen to make our society work. How awful for such jobs to be denegrated so

It's no wonder many go for university even if they know in their hearts it's not for them if there is such a stigma about the 'mundane job' route.

Penthesileia · 16/07/2010 13:59

Knowledge for knowledge's sake is not a popular reason for valuing university, but - in any civilised country - it ought to be one.

Sadly, the utilitarian argument (which dominates the UK debate) which wants a degree to translate into a job risks devaluing subjects which are, inherently, non-vocational: history, Classics, English literature, etc. Universities exist to protect - as far as is possible - these kinds of subjects.

My esteem for Labour as a party which had historically valued education as a means to social mobility took a bashing when figures like Charles Clarke or Ed Balls ridiculed the value of, for instance, medieval history. This exposed their ugly, and frankly (given their own educations), privileged philistinism.

There is still a place for universities as centres of learning which foster and nurture knowledge of all kinds, particularly in the modern world of debased "knowledge": the internet is, on the one hand, a miraculous tool for the dissemination of information; on the other, it is also (and rightly so!) a largely "unpoliced" one - much of the information available on certain subjects is inaccurate, wrong, misguided, etc. (as my students find out to their peril when they quote www.weirdsite.com as a source for their essays...). Academics and universities need to adapt more quickly to the information revolution so that they can be part of this landscape in a more contributive and positive way.

Aside from the question of how society values and disseminates knowledge of all kinds, there is also a pressing socio-economic/cultural point of which everyone should remind themselves. It is highly likely, regardless of figures like Robinson, that the professional classes will continue to value (certain kinds of) university degrees for their children, their employees, and their colleagues. There is, therefore, a compelling argument to be made that social mobility, therefore, may still depend on one's access to quality tertiary education. Should we therefore encourage our children to aspire to these degrees? Damn right we should.

Of course, I am sympathetic to the argument which says that only the brightest and best should attend university (which might lead one to conclude that universities offering, for instance, Sports Sciences or Media Studies - the typical whipping boy of the degree world - should be closed down, etc.), but we need to be very, very careful about chiming in too readily with a point of view which seeks to narrow the opportunities for young people, rather than open them up, particularly if there is nothing else to take there place.

There is nothing wrong with arguing that some form of tertiary education should be available to 50%, if not more, of young people, so long as this argument is made with the right kind of resources and destinations for school leavers. Perhaps universities have not yet adapted enough to make the case for this yet (although, as someone earlier in the thread pointed out, employers have now, effectively, passed on certain aspects of "training" to universities, anyway).

Having an educated population is an advantage for the UK. If we are not careful, the university educated from other countries - in our globalised and mobile world - will fill our workplaces at the expense of our own children.

We have a responsibility as a nation to educate as highly as possible as many of our young people (or older people! I am all for mature students!) as possible.

Penthesileia · 16/07/2010 14:03

Eek. 4 degrees, and I still wrote "there place"! Ahhh. the shame. Their place...

FairyMum · 16/07/2010 14:07

Very much agree with everything you are saying Penthesileia. I am already noticing when I am recruiting in my workplace that young eastern europeans are generally much better educated these days than young Brits. They do much much better in the tests we give out. We only recruit from top universitites and if you send me your CV with only a-levels on it, its straight in the bin.

foreverastudent · 16/07/2010 14:27

There is an argument for education for its own sake, to open one's mind and broaden one's horizons.

I would want my DCs to go to uni not only for long-term economic reasons but for the social and cultural reasons.

The experience of living away from home, in a strange city, socialising and living with a mix of people was life-changing for me and I'd feel sorry for my DCs if they didn't get the same oportunity.

claig · 16/07/2010 14:38

agree with Penthesileia about non-vocational courses being important amd let's have courses in all sorts of subjects. But, somebody somewhere is having a laugh. As GetOrfMoiLand said, they are charging £20,000 for "football studies" and calling it a degree. They are raking in the cash and knowingly dumping young people on the dole with £20,000 debts. This has been encouraged and allowed. I'm for free tertiary education, but if students do have to pay, then let's quit the pretence and start calling a spade a spade. There is no way that students should be charged that amount of money for those type of degrees. This is conning young people and harming their future.

BadgersPaws · 16/07/2010 14:53

"There is no way that students should be charged that amount of money for those type of degrees."

But who's to decide what "those type" of degrees are?

OK Football Studies is obviously one of "those type".

But what about Medieval studies? As said above Ed Balls would class it as one of "those type", but on the other hand I bet Penthesileia wouldn't.

If the Daily Mail got it's way "Media Studies" would certainly be tarred as one of "those type" of degrees and would be kicked out of Universities.

In the end if someone thinks that spending £20k to get a degree in Football Studies is a good thing to be doing then I don't think that there's much that we can do about it.

claig · 16/07/2010 15:03

medieval studies is great, that is an academic subject. I'm saying let's have football studies and media studies but let's not let fat cats rip students off by charging exorbitant amounts for these courses. Let's have a regulator who sets limits on the cost of some of these courses. They could set the cost by knowing what the real job prospects for people graduating with these degrees is. Otherwise we have had a privatisation of education where fat cats are making money off of naive young people. We have a duty to protect young people, we stop drugs being freely available, whether they want them or not. In the same way we shouldn't allow them to get into that amount of debt for what we know are sometimes mickey mouse degrees, in order to enrich certain colleges or individuals. In the long run this will discredit our entire education system as devalued extortionate degrees are issued and young people realise that they have been fleeced. When they wake up they may start getting angry.

MmeLindt · 16/07/2010 15:05

I know I keep banging on about Sir Ken Robinson, but if you are interested in this topic then please go on this thread to vote for a webchat with him.

If you have not heard of him, I urge you to watch the videos to hear him talk. He says, "Human communities depend upon a diversity of talent, not a singular conception of ability".

We do not just need doctors and lawyers, bankers and architects. We need builders and nurses, receptionist and salespeople. And we need them to be recognised as equally worthy instead of second class citizens because they have no degree.

This does not mean that we should not encourage our children to go to university, but we should not make them feel less valuable to our society if they do not go.

Brilliant post, Penth.

MrsFC · 16/07/2010 15:15

I agree with you fairymum. I think University isn't just for getting a job. It's also to spend three more years growing up before heading out into the real world. You gain friends for life, meet a much more diverse set of people and also have lots of fun before starting on the rest of your working life.

Sure if you can do a degree that helps with your chosen career that's great, but be honest - unless you do a particularly business orientated degree, most humanities degrees do not necessarily push you further up any career ladder, and you will probably end up in a teaching or media sales job.

But what will shine through is a more rounded personality of a young adult who has spent three years learning how to get on with people from all walks of life, and more importantly, themselves.

MmeLindt · 16/07/2010 15:31

Is meeting friends and experiencing Uni life worth spending thousands of tax payers money, and incurring person debt?

I left school at 17yo and went to work in an Outdoor Centre in the Scottish Highlands. I met a variety of people from all walks of life, had a lot of fun, met new friends. It did not cost me a penny, in fact I earned a small amount.

Studying for the sake of it should not be encouraged.

If my DC want to go to Uni because they are interested in the course, are passionate about learning then I will do my best to ensure that they can go. Whether they want to study Art History, Sport, Medicine or any other subject which truly interests them.

GetOrfMoiLand · 16/07/2010 15:44

Ooh Claig I so agree with all you have said.

I said something along those lines - about universities taking the piss out of young people for actually charging for such ridiculous degrees as football studies - and someone said I was being unreasonable as it is up to the student to not be such an idiot and choose such crap.

Thing is, my cousin was not an academic type. His school encourage him to apply for this course as his main interest was football. To be perfectly honest he would have been best off training to be a plumber or something, however his parents were so stoked at the thought of him going to uni, his school wanted to increase their uni attendance figures, and the kid himself was beside himself at the thought of studying bloody football for 3 years in a big city, well common sense escaped. But I think it is true that the universities have a bloody responsibility to not encourage crap like this by putting on obviosuly mickey mouse courses.

MmeLindt · 16/07/2010 15:46

Football Studies at the University of WTF

trice · 16/07/2010 16:02

I thought my four years at university were a total waste of time. I enjoyed them socially but I didn't earn anything useful. My own fault really as I chose a stupid subject due to being 17 and a fool.

I learned marketable skills through working and running my own business. I have never used or needed my degree.

Perhaps if students are paying for their education they will insist on learning things that are of use?

Football is a multi million pound industry. If the employers in the industry were consulted on the design of the degree and it was teaching something pertinent to the industry then I don't see it any more frivolous than studying hospitality or the like.

GetOrfMoiLand · 16/07/2010 16:06

Friends son studies Gambling at Salford, got a first and works in a Pizza Express.

Cousin studies Football Studies at Solent uni and works in Somerfield.

£20K of debt. Lots of happy memories of getting steaming drunk. A degree which people laugh at.

Is it worth it?