How would you answer this English question?

[steppemum]

So
DON'T read anyone else's answer first.
DON'T explain your answer for now, just answer.
DON'T overthink it, go with what your first response would be.

This is a comprehension passgae based on a poem. The first verse of the poem is:

Hamelin's Town's in Brunswick
By famous Hanover city;
The river Weser deep and wide,
Washes its wall on the southern side;

The question is:

In relation to the river, Hamelin lies:
a) to the north
b) to the south
c) to the west
d) to the east

So which answer would you choose? I'll be back in a couple of hours to explain why I'm asking and see what people put.

Thank you!!

My 9 year old has come across plenty of trick questions, riddles etc. They are a big thing online. So he would probably overthink this and get it wrong. He would understand if I drew a diagram I think. I may try it with him later.

I meant they haven't come across "trick questions" in exams or schoolwork, @mewkins. Hence my suggestion that they might get the question right if OP told them it was a riddle or a maths/geography question. I should have been clearer!

My thinking is the river is on the southern side of the city, so it must be:
In relation to the river, Hamelin lies:
a) to the north

TheShoulder

interesting points.
But it does work that way. In comprehension passages there are always parts that require other knowledge.
The most obvious is historical knowledge. Some passages assume that they understand quite a lot about how things worked in an age of candles and horses.

But also in the maths paper, there is a huge need for English comprehension to understand the question. That is nothing to do with maths, and it isn't unusual for kids who struggle with comprehension to struggles with maths word questions. So their score on maths is dependant on their English ability.

North

I think North? If the river washes on the southern side doesn't the town lie North?

I guess my point is that that specific English question requires a maths skill not just knowledge, OP. That makes it unfair, as you should be testing their English abilities not their maths abilities, and is probably why none of them get it because they aren't expecting to have to do maths in an English exam at that age.

I would assume that the historical knowledge they are expected to know is fairly basic though? Things like knowing that they used candles and horses and didn't have electricity or cars rather than knowing what a motte and bailey is? Things that are part of the national curriculum and reinforced multiple times. My DC are grown up but I'm pretty sure they were reading about Biff and Chip visiting the Egyptians and the Victorians in infants, long before they studied those periods in junior school...

Maths word questions are a maths skill. It's how we often use maths day to day. DC are taught how to do them and regularly practice them.

the shoulder
I disagree, if you say that those historical things are knowledge they should have, then knowing north and south is also knowledge they should have.
It is part of their maths curriculum and is part of the total of things that they have been taught and 'should' know.

That makes it unfair, as you should be testing their English abilities not their maths abilities

and I would still contest that the other way around is also not fair then. Word based maths problems. Being able to understand English is NOT testing your maths skill, it is testing your English comprehension skill. That is glaringly obvious with some kids, who can score highly on complex maths, but very low on the word questions.

I didn't write the question by the way!

I'm with North, but it's mostly going to be washing the East or West banks, going by the map, Browning's also rubbish (I suppose you can argue it turns southeastwards, but I reckon that would be beyond the bounds of the old city anyway.) Hamelin is in the state of Hanover.

I had to visualise it in my head to think about where the river was washing, so I wonder if it's partly how phantasic you are. But I could do points of the compass from quite young, because my family has always been big on map reading.

North but you do have to read it carefully.

the river is South so it must be North.

Most of the British adults think the heavy the object the faster it falls so try teaching Physics to them…..

likewise ask any British teenager who our PM is - they will probably get it. American president - about 75% leader of the Welsh assembly maybe less 5% outside wales.

Then ask where Israel is? How long has Israel been there? The role of the U.K. in the Middle East conflict (history)? Then ask where in the Middle East they think Israel is and what other countries are in the Middle East or even some basic U.K. geography eg where is Stourbridge and it is a bit hair raising .. to say the least

The difference is that English comprehension is required for maths. Being able to extract mathematical information/data from prose is a necessary skill to be able to use maths eg finding the appropriate data in a document to analyse it or even something mundane like extracting information from an email about the works Christmas do to calculate costs. That is why it is taught from a young age.

Conversely, you could study English (or any language) or English literature at degree level without being able to add up.

DS2 age 12. "It can't be South because that's where the river is, so it's to the North". My 12 yr old is smarter than the 22yr old 😁 Or maybe his comprehension skills are still honed from KS2 Sats.

I do think that as soon as you take the verse and the question the person answering it is on alert that this might not be easy, so they stop and think.
So by asking the question you are skewing the result!

Maybe I should put a little warning line on that question - Stop! Think about what the words actually say! Are you SURE?

Then they might get it right.

I've just read it to my 10yo and 14yo and they both said it's to the North - I got the 10yo to answer first to make sure he wasn't just copying his brother's answer!

I asked my almost 14 year old and she got it wrong - but she didn’t spend any time thinking about it, just gave a quick answer.

Late to the party, but I said north. I was expecting it to be a trick question though. Was also foxed by the rogue apostrophe and trying to work out whether they were possessive or not, and whether any scenario would make a difference!

I thought the answer to the countries question was going to be France, because you asked 'which WORD' was the odd one out. (They all have two vowels but the others contain A and I, while France contains A and E.) I also thought 'Brazil isn't in Europe' was too obvious. Then I started wondering whether it was about how many land borders each country has...

Do the kids get to explain their answers? Because I think my vowels answer is valid! I might be a while with my land borders answer

A

I just asked my 11 & 14 year old and they both answered correctly but have both done a form of 11+, eldest got into a grammar and youngest didn't.

But eldest is unusual in her grammar at being particularly strong at English rather than Maths which as you say is the one that grammar children tend to excel at.

Youngest is also strong at English I'd say as reads voraciously but definitely found the VR side of the tests harder.

Where is the unnecessary apostrophe?

It should be Hamelin town, not Hamelin’s.

Thank you - I read it several times and couldn’t spot it but now it’s pointed out it’s obvious.😂

North

To the north

It is a bit out of context, they give a set of 5 words and it is based on meaning, so they would be looking for meaning.

Other examples are (although I'm making them up on the spot so they might not be perfect examples):

hammer, chisel, saw, fork, screwdriver. (fork, because not a tool for wood work)
pen, brush, pencil, chalk, ink (ink because others are mark making tools)

and apologies again for the rougue apostrophe.

Is the OP (Pied Piper question) unique in that no child ever gets it?

not entirely unique, I have other questions that lots of children get wrong, but this one does stand out, and I think it got me thinking because I don't think of it as a hard question, whereas some of the other ones that kids struggle with are more understandably hard.

But what is interesting is that all the people who have asked their kids, their kids have got it right, which makes me pretty sure that it is a skim reading, grab the 'south' from the passage without bothering to read what it actually says.

I spend a lot of time at this point in the year talking about actually understanding and not plucking answers off the page. Some pick that up quicker than others.