How would you answer this English question?

[steppemum]

So
DON'T read anyone else's answer first.
DON'T explain your answer for now, just answer.
DON'T overthink it, go with what your first response would be.

This is a comprehension passgae based on a poem. The first verse of the poem is:

Hamelin's Town's in Brunswick
By famous Hanover city;
The river Weser deep and wide,
Washes its wall on the southern side;

The question is:

In relation to the river, Hamelin lies:
a) to the north
b) to the south
c) to the west
d) to the east

So which answer would you choose? I'll be back in a couple of hours to explain why I'm asking and see what people put.

Thank you!!

I teach univeristy students and some of them don't get mapping. It's a hard skill to learn to translate something from a flat depiction to the more real world pointing and saying "it's that way". It's not a comprehension thing, it's spatial awareness and understanding maps and compass directions IMO. Once students start using maps they get it pretty quickly (at least 2d, 3d takes longer). So I would guess most of your students just aren't using maps yet. Now I really must stop procrastinating! 😆

Or is it the ‘southern side’ of the river that is washing the walls? A little ambiguous.

I guess it's asking for 3 separate skills from the kids.
The 1st is comprehension, so understanding that Hamelin is the subject of the poem, the "its " therefore refers to Hamelin. Then they have to grasp the relationship of the river, so that's spatial awareness.
then they also need to understand a compass and that north is directly opposite south, and that if the river is touching the southern side then the city it touches is north in relation to it.
Its a lot of separate skills for a child.

Out of interest. I would assume kids would guess if they didn't know, so what are they actually answering? surely the odd random guess would be right on a few occasions?

"The river Weser washes its wall on the southern side"

The "its" meaning Hamelin, the town that is the subject of the poem.

So, the river washes Hamelin's southern end. Hence the town is to the north.

a).

They always answer south.
because of the line - 'southern side'

The poem is a challenge comprehension wise, as it uses old fashioned language and poem structure, but they usually get the rest of the questions, which I would have thought are equally hard.

North

North

Its a good point about the different skills.
In maths when we get to co-ordinates, they rarely have trouble with the North and South (sometimes mix up East and West)
Which is why I guess I am always surprised at how hard this little question is!

To the North

If they understand north south etc, then it seems it's the 'in relation to' bit that is tripping them up.

The concept of 'washing its walls' is probably confusing. It's not a expression you hear much (or ever).

to the north

North

A

I take your points about
'in relation to'
and
'washes its walls'

but part of the skill that they are learning is to deal with that slightly more obscure language and work it out. They do that really well with lots of other words and phrases. And I don't think this verse is particularly difficult. It gets harder and they deal with the harder language further down.

The thing that has struck me about this is that NO-ONE gets it. Usually you will get some kids who understand and some who don't, and it is different things that trips them up. But this is universal.

I actually think that it might be more an example of skim reading for the answer. This is something that clever kids tend to do with easier work. You are looking for where the river and city are and you read it quickly searching for those words, find the word 'southern' and use that in your answer.
That is something they have to learn you can't do with 11+ comprehension, you can't skim read and pick the answer, you do actually have to read and understand it.

North

Now I'm tempted to ask every teenager I know to see who get it and who doesn't! Good question @steppemum

well I was thinking that the next step is to ask loads of kids aged between 10 and 15 and see what they say and see where the penny drops!!!

A

@mewkins Becauae it's not about comprehension-it's about geography. Like so much of the 11+ it's about knowing other, quite obscure stuff, not just about being able to interpret the text. An extra layer of selection.

I think you’re right. They are skim reading the question looking for the answer to jump out. Which is the opposite of reading comprehension really!

It’d odd that they still don’t get it after you’ve explained and drawn a diagram. I don’t understand that at all.

Possibly they are inferring that "the southern side" refers to "the southern side of the river" which means the river is North of the town, the town south of the river.

Why don't you ask them?

I'm definitely going to ask my 12yr old when he gets home. I knew/worked out it was North. I've just asked my 22yr old ex grammar school child, and he didn't get it right either. 😐 I'll let you know if a 12 yr old is smarter than a 22yr old. 😂

you are right, there is a certain amount of general knowledge expected.

But the points of the compass are part of year 5 maths, and they do know them and do have to understand them as part of year 5 national curriculum. So in this case it isn't really asking something that is outside of school knowledge.

There are other things they are expected to know which would fall outside school curriculum.

An example would be:

Which word is the odd one out:

France, Spain, Brazil, Italy.

The answer is Brazil, and they are expected to recognise that those other countries are in Europe.