How would you answer this English question?

[steppemum]

So
DON'T read anyone else's answer first.
DON'T explain your answer for now, just answer.
DON'T overthink it, go with what your first response would be.

This is a comprehension passgae based on a poem. The first verse of the poem is:

Hamelin's Town's in Brunswick
By famous Hanover city;
The river Weser deep and wide,
Washes its wall on the southern side;

The question is:

In relation to the river, Hamelin lies:
a) to the north
b) to the south
c) to the west
d) to the east

So which answer would you choose? I'll be back in a couple of hours to explain why I'm asking and see what people put.

Thank you!!

@TheShoulder "I think the answer is that the age they "get it" is at whatever age they have acquired enough exam technique to realise that an English comprehension question might require you to use knowledge from a different subject."

The problem is that the 11+ in state education is supposed to require no external knowledge. Otherwise it's not fair. Which it isn't! There are some 10 year olds who might have helped a parent browse the Farrell and Ball catalogue and choose between Sage, Matcha and Psyallis greens. And some who won't.

In those year groups the concept of city walls surrounding a city and rivers being outside just isn't a mental model, especially as modern cities tend to spread both sides of the river? When you draw the city do you emphasise the walls? Does your nearest city have a river to the north of the city centre?

North

I would have answered that as South but I look like I'm on my own there.
I don't think it is clear though

A, North

I asked my three:

11 year old said North

9 year old said North initially then changed it to South (because of the Southern Side, though she gets it now that I've explained)

7 year old just shrugged.

@TheShoulder and @SpidersAreShitheads

yes you are both right.
I spend quite a lot of this year encouraging them to apply knowledge learnt in a different context.
Even in maths word problems reminding them that they have to bring information to the table. ie the problem expects you to KNOW that the angles in a triangle add up to 180. They aren't going to tell you that, you have to know it and bring it to the question.

And in reading comprehension it is about understanding an inference, not about finding the facts. Even simple things like the passage says they don't have any shoes to wear and are cold, and they have to infere that they are poor.

It is quite shocking actually how bad many of our kids are at doing that.

But they do learn to start doing it quite quickly!

North

This is interesting as St Paul's Girls 11+ used to have a non-fiction comprehension as well as an English one - don't know if they still do. My DD found this much easier as it was obvious that you needed to think about the answers rather than just skimming the text.

I seem to recall an English O-level passage hinging on whether you understood that 'may' could mean 'hawthorn'.

As one of my not-very friends snarled at me afterwards, 'Well you would know that because you're a fucking tree hugger!'

@steppemum I wonder if this overlaps with children being unable to tell the time on analogue clocks. Mine cannot do it and come out with phrases like 42 past 2. Or it's 6 past 2. They just can't get the idea of to and past like we do because they stare at digital clocks.

@steppemum

North!

But what joy to hear the poem! DF favourite all those years ago!

A) to the north

I just asked my 14 year old DD. She had to mentally draw it using her hands, but then said 'North'.

I agree with you about the 11+

It is not a test of intelligence or of potential. It is a test of vocabulary and education.

There is a saying which is that the 11+ is won and lost on vocabulary, and there is a lot of truth in that.
The broader and wider your vocabulary, the more likely you are to pass.
That really puts at a disadvantage both kids from non reading homes, however bright, and also kids who have English as a second language.

I have come across clever kids who have not covered in school all the maths required, even though it is supposed to be based on the school curriculum. Poor maths teaching (this has been especially true since Covid, the covid gap was a real thing) disadvantages them as they haven't covered all the things in the test.

You don't need a tutor, but you do need to prepare.

yes that is another issue.
And that reminds me that I need to tell my 11+ parents to practise telling the time with their kids!

To the North, but a number of cities have rivers running through them, in which case (being pedantic), it would be washing against the both the north and south banks, as rivers generally touch both sides of the area they are flowing through.

Is the rest of the poem any better?

that's not really the point. What a city might or might not have or what might be common isnt the point.

The point is what does this poem say about the location or the city and the river.

My 9 year old has come across plenty of trick questions, riddles etc. They are a big thing online. So he would probably overthink this and get it wrong. He would understand if I drew a diagram I think. I may try it with him later.

State school children mostly don't learn enough maths by the end of yr 5 to do well in 11+ without additional help. They should know how to tell the time using an analogue clock though. It's definitely in KS2 curriculum. Doesn't anyone buy their children a learn to tell the time clock or wristwatch any more?

well yes and no.
Any child doing the 11+ is going to need to do more on top of school.
But usually the kids I tutor come with a certain base level. The amount they need to do on top is very manageable.

But the post covid gap has meant that I have had kids who have huge holes in their maths knowledge. To much to catch up in my lessons. eg kids who have pretty much not done any fractions.

Maybe they are all as stupid as me and don’t read the question properly…
To make matters worse, I am a teacher (not English!). A frazzled, stressed teacher.

That's quite shocking. My DS is in yr7 now and I distinctly remember doing fractions with him during lockdown home learning, and helping him to really grasp the concepts in yr 5, back at school, because his teacher couldn't be bothered to spend extra time with a bright child who would " definitely learn it with his next teacher in yr 6" .😬🙄

Norf

I agree that the 11+ is unfair because it is a test of vocabulary and education rather than intelligence and potential.

I also agree that we need to teach children to apply knowledge learnt in a different context. However, I don't think an English exam should require students to apply knowledge from other subjects.

I think that particular question is very unfair because it is an English comprehension question that requires skills from a different subject. An English exam should only be testing English skills not maths/geography skills (skills rather than knowledge, IYSWIM?). It is different from the question about sage, which is testing knowledge of a definition (albeit a somewhat obscure definition), therefore it is a language question. Understanding that a town that has a river licking its southern walls is north of the river is maths/geography/spatial comprehension, not English comprehension. Another example would be, it might be fair in an English exam to ask what the word "score" means in the phrase "four score and ten" but unfair to ask what "four score and ten" means as it requires the the student to be proficient at mental arithmetic. You shouldn't lose marks in an English exam because you can't multiply and add up.