If your children have never been to school and you have always said...

[mychildrenarebarmy]

"of course if they wanted to go to school we would let them" What would be your criteria?

We HE our DD who is 6yrs and plan to do the same for her brother. She has never been to school and has a mix of friend in schools and HE world. She has started saying she would like to try school. I have always said the above but now she is saying it I am not happy with the idea for many reasons. I was expecting it to happen at some point but not quite so soon.

She has a grass is greener idea of school.
If she went to school none of the ones within walking distance are ones I would send her to so we would have to drive.
I dislike the education system in general.
I don't think she is old enough yet to make that decision for herself.
I think it would not necessarily be good for her. I think she would struggle with the structure of it (we are semi-structured but not in a school type way) which I think would have an adverse effect on her.

And there's this assumption that children at school don't learn again!

It's interesting that it seems much more possible for school users to seen the benefits of home ed than for home edders to see anything good at all about school.

I'm not getting at you titchy but I actually disagree. I marvel at all these people who have DCs who are enthusiast to learn on their own, but part of my reason for not doing it is that I have 3 lazy boys. It would be a chore to get them to write anything at home, even on the computer. Nickschick description of her morning at home with her DCs was lovely, but the chances of my DS writing a daily diary would be nil, without intense bribery.
I get more interested in things as I get older-part of my joy of teaching as I am always having to find out about new things. I think that by the time I get to about 80yrs I might be ready for OU!!

Sorry -enthusiastic.

Titchy - I don't think anyone is having a go at you because you have said you wouldn't home-ed.
Maybe questioning a couple of other points you've made but not about you not home-edding.

I think the school for a day at home thing is a kind of passive-aggressive way to show that school is terrible because it will have things that could be perceived as negative in it, like structure, but would be impossible to create the positives.

My son is 5, if in the next few years he suggests he wants to try school, an option I will not vocalise at such a young age, I will tell him that his parents have decided this style of education is most suitable to him at this age. Then I would discuss what he felt he was missing out on and what steps could be taken to improve this.

SummatAnNowt- thats a good thought.

Pisces moon -there is no bend - schoolwork comes first and it has to be done - mornings are the time I choose to do 'written learning' if that works not done then it is done under Dads or Grandads supervision - its only happened once -the dc know whats easiest for them .

I also have 3 very lazy boys but I made it clear from the start H.E wasnt the opt out.

That sounds like my 'take' on schools, SummatAnNowt-a sensible solution for you.

I wouldn't want to work like that nickschick-they would still do only enough to get by. I prefer to leave the school to do the basics and that leaves me free to do the fun things. If I had enthusiastic,self motivated DSs who wanted to write and illustrate whole chapter books for fun (the way I have in school) I might think differently.

Piscesmoon, I must disagree with what you said here: If you decide to send your DC to school all it really requires is that you get your DC up in time in the morning.

Although not in all cases, those that do well in school have to receive a lot of support from parents with what school is doing. Homework needs help and supervision. Teachers need to be liased with. Often support is needed for school trips etc. A parent has to go along with the educational philosophy of the school. You also have to deal with all the emotional stuff that sometimes gets poured out to you after school is over. You make it sound as if school is somehow less work, and HE is more onerous, as though school is some passive tool one uses to achieve a task and therefore an easier option. I think that some parents do have that view and that is why there are so many problems with gov interference and bullying, failing standards in some etc.

I think it is right that everybody should question the role of school in today's society. That could not be a bad thing. If a parent is using their energies to HE with positive results, they are right to question if school can offer something superior as opposed to just good enough.

It was a bit of a sweeping overview! Obviously I do a lot more, however it is much simpler.If they are at school I can get paid employment, I can shop in peace, do the housework etc while they are at school and follow my own interests. To me HE is a whole family way of life, I know some people don't see it like this but to me it is a lifestyle choice and the DCs are central. I like to separate family and education-it is down to personal choice.

I think you are right when you say HE is a life style choice. And I guess you can use that extra alone time for housework etc without kids making mess as you go along! Mind you, I never relished the thought of housework at any time, so am quite happy that I now at least have a legitimate excuse for the mess - blame it on the kids!

I have just sat down to read through everything that has been posted since the last time I did. You have been a busy bunch!

I probably won't mention all the points that came up because there are so many posts but I will pick out the ones that come to mind. First of all though it does seem to have been a passing whim as she said yesterday that she doesn't want to go yet but maybe when she is about 8 or 9.

I am slightly miffed at the assumptions that I planned to make the 'school day' so rigid. I don't think I said that and if I said anything that gave that impression I didn't word it very well. Obviously I can't replicate a playtime or large group work situations. She knows about the positives as is clear from the fact she asked is our 'school day' could be one where we go on a school trip. I am also aware that the school day in year 1 is not completely rigid but there are things like not being able to just play outside when you feel like it etc.

nickschick - don't you love the fact that they are keen to do things like that.

I disagree with the point that missing out on things at this age doesn't do any harm. At this age it is IMHO vital that they are given whatever input they need to help foster the love of learning that comes naturally to all children. If things are missed when they are this age it can have the effect of screwing up their love of learning and have an effect for ever. It happened to both of my brothers and because of that they both struggled the older they got.

It's not schools I have a problem with, it is the education system as a whole. It is so messed about with and is so difficult for teachers to be able to make sure that all the children in their class get the best. It is also just one of the reasons that a large number of HE'ers are former teachers.

Home ed isn't right for everyone and neither is school. There are good HE'ers and bad HE'ers in just the same way as there are good and bad teachers. There really doesn't need to be an argument about which is 'right' because different things suit different people.

In the HE families I know it is about the whole family and it is a way of life. Yes it does take a lot of time and effort but for us it is just another part of parenting.

Thank you again to everyone for all points about my original post (and the tangents). It has meant that I have had chance to think through with some points I wouldn't necessarily have come up with.

An excellent and well balanced summing up.

'Home ed isn't right for everyone and neither is school. There are good HE'ers and bad HE'ers in just the same way as there are good and bad teachers. There really doesn't need to be an argument about which is 'right' because different things suit different people.'

That is your paragraph that I really like and if all HEers could agree with that I would keep well out of it and not make any comments. I think that HE is the best choice for some DCs-I just get riled by those who have read all the books and are then 'experts' on how children learn and think that school is damaging for all DCs. I learn in a room with other people and a teacher, and I did as a DC.
You are also the first person to admit that there are bad HE'ers, in the same way that there are good and bad teachers-another point that I very rarely get anyone to agree with-the assumption seems to be that any parent can do it, and although I think that the majority are excellent some are very bad at it.

I have only ever had three points:

1. There are bad schools, but there are lots of fantastic schools.

1. Some DCs would hate HE.

1. Not all parents can HE to the benefit of their DC

(I still think that you can't create a school day at home and I don't even think it worth trying)

Anyway-good luck with it all. I think 9 or 10 is a good age to try school, if they want to, purely because if they are thinking of going to secondary school at some point it is easier to try primary first.

piscesmoon - shhh don't point out that I said that. I will be shot!

It was lovely mychildrenarebarmy-I am quite happy for HEers to extol the virtues of HE, I find it interesting, I just hate the fact that they are so negative about schools. If they would stick to the former I would keep off the threads-I just like to address the balance. I have read many of the same books-I have just drawn different conclusions.

Ah yes but if you did that then I wouldn't have had the benefit of your input on this thread!

I don't think that people in general actually want my input!!

Ah yes, but it was me that started the thread so I don't think that matters in this case. If I had been that offended by what you had said I would have told you to sod off go away ... oh heck, now I am going to be shot by the home ed police and the mumsnet police. I wonder who else I can upset before the weekend is out?!

Really though, it is a damn shame that more people can't just accept that while they believe that the path they have chosen for themselves is right for them it's not going to be right for everyone else. Apart from anything else it doesn't do your 'cause' any good. I had a email conversation with the chairman of Voice along similair lines.

I can't be doing with people being evangelical about anything. I have strong views about some things but I wouldn't try to impose those views on other people in an attempt to change their way of thinking to be like mine.

Personally I think it is perfectly ok for a parent to make decisions about her 6yo child.

Dh and I decided that dcs were going to start school.

We decided that we were going to stay in the UK rather than emigrate when I had a job offer. (we did discuss it with dcs- who are older than 6, but we made the ultimate decision)

If we had wanted to HE, we might well have decided to do so.

(but would have been prepared to revise our views later as the children grew up- as Riven did)

What I don't think would be fair though would be to send your child in to school hoping that she won't like it.

If you really don't want her to go, you should have the guts to say so.

If you do think she should have a choice, then it needs to be a fair trial (not secretely hoping you will be proved right).

I wouldn't send her to school until I could truthfully answer the question: 'how will I cope if she decides she loves it there?'.

'Really though, it is a damn shame that more people can't just accept that while they believe that the path they have chosen for themselves is right for them it's not going to be right for everyone else. Apart from anything else it doesn't do your 'cause' any good.'

That is it in a nutshell. I think it is a very valid life choice but it seems to me that it goes with the idea that it is the ideal for every DC and that schools take away the natural enthusiasm and individuality of DCs. There is the peculiar idea that teachers want rows of obedient DCs who never question and do neat little exercises in their books! I love the quirky ones who ask questions, don't take your word for it and have an original turn of mind-I would imagine that that is why most teachers do the job. All DCs are individuals-they are all quirky in some way. School doesn't kill it.
I certainly don't want to impose my views on everyone and have all DCs in school-just the acknowledgement that some DCs love school and they aren't deficient in some way.

I also fully agree with cory, which is why I am against the school day at home because even if you try to make it informal somewhere in the day your DC is going to say 'I've had enough now, I want to play'and you are going to be able to say 'tough, you have another 10mins to go'-it isn't really how it works in school and I don't really think any DC would want to go out in the playground on their own.
The HEers that I admire the most are those who let their DCs make up their own mind (when they are older)and swallow their own disappointment if the DC loves it. (I think at 6yrs it is fair enough to impose your own views).

" I have strong views about some things but I wouldn't try to impose those views on other people in an attempt to change their way of thinking to be like mine."

To a certain extent, I think this sums up why some home-educators are so vocal about why they dislike the school system. In many cases they become truly fed up of being told how they are damaging their children by keeping them out of school or at best depriving them of some necessary experience. People with children at school can be quite strong in their views of why a child should go to school and do attempt to change other people's way of thinking.

Some are continually being challenged about why they think it is better to home-educate.
It gets very wearing and it also becomes frustrating when they do mention what they find wrong with the school system they are told that they don't have a clue?

I think that if they just stuck to the positives of HE, and were enthusiastic practitioners of it, it would do their cause so much good-unfortunately they nearly always feel the need to make sweeping statements about schools. In many cases it is based on their own experiences.
I think it is like party political broadcasts (when we unfortunately get to that time).I am interested if they are enthusiastic about what they are going to do, I switch off if they spend their time saying what is wrong with the other party.

It's the same both sides, really.
People who have a good experience of school sometimes evangelise about the perceived benefits and only relate to their experience.
Surely we can all only make judgements on our own experiences plus whatever we research. I can't make a judgement based purely on what someone else found good for them.

I get told how wonderful school is now. The glossy prospectus for the school tells me how wonderful it is. Mine and some of my children's experiences tell me different.

I don't think this means that people should stop talking about what they see as good or bad about a certain method. It's a good thing to be able to weigh up all points of view and perhaps clear a few misconceptions on both sides.

Schools have to sell themselves these days so they will say they are wonderful-you make up your mind from the visit.
They are not allowed to tell you how bad the school down the road is-and that is the difference.
Everyone makes up their own mind-if I had listened to local opinion my DCs would have gone to a different school-I was free to disagree. I had to put up with parents being rather pitying towards me because 'they cared about education and their DC was at a superior school', I was quite happy with my choice so just let it go over my head. I knew that my choice suited my DCs and so it really didn't upset me.

"I was quite happy with my choice so just let it go over my head. I knew that my choice suited my DCs and so it really didn't upset me."

That's how I feel about my choice of education for my children.

I think the difference is that any criticism of your choice isn't possibly tied in with people with the power to change how you choose to do things.
With home-education there are opponents of it with potentially the power to change it. Hearing other people criticizing home-education can make some home-educators fearful that it might bring change particularly if it was enough to back up the policies of those in power who want to see things change and think that schools are where all children should be. I would think the concern is that people who know nothing or very little about home-education could influence or add support to those who want to see changes.