Be honest, I want everyone's views......what do you think of home ed???

[3Ddonut]

I suspect this may get nasty, but please try to keep it nice ladies (and gents) I really like the idea of home ed, I would dearly love to home ed my dc but there are some problems, firstly I work 3 nights a week and my dh works 2 full days,my eldest dd is 5 and she really loves school, but some of things that she says about school unsettle me, I always said that it is their choice if they want to go to school or not, which is why she is there and my ds is in nursery but I wish she'd want to stay home and the longer that she's there, the more I feel that we're wasting time...

I've read a lot of the other threads and see that you can do some home-ed stuff alongside school but I don't think that it's enough for me, I want them to remain interested and not be moved on from one thing too quickly or forced to spend time on things they dislike.

We're already a close family because of mine and dh's shifts there is nearly always someone in the house and we get to spend a lot of time with the kids. I suppose I'd just like it to be more of the same.

My main concerns are that the dc would resent us for it in the future (although I would not take a happy child out of school) I also worry about the effect of home ed-ing the children would have on future employers and university places, I do worry about the socialisation aspect although the kids are in a few groups and are very social, they interact well with adults as well as other children, I'm concerned about how much time I'd have to work with them with working full time myself (no opportunity to cut hours)

I'm going round in circles at the min, I think my ds would be more open to the idea and I'm considering not sending dd2 to nursery at all.

The other biggie is that the school they attend is out of area and it's a really good one, they wouldn't get back in there if we deregistered, I've considered flexi-schooling but I feel that would bring more problems than solutions....

OK, Open fire!!!

I would be torn between shaking the hand and feeling the forehead of anyone who chose to home ed. their kids.

I've never stated that the school system is perfect.

My worry is that people may underestimate how much skill is needed to teach. Poor 'facilitators' will damage the learning of children be these trained teachers or parents.

many of the children I see are those with SEN that have been undiagnosed/ unsupported through their primary years

FWIW I agree with your last statement. There is simply good and bad education However there are many in HE who think that HE is always better than any school and that is where I differ.

sorry, just one more comment before I go into school!

'With 'personalised learning' at home a parent can adapt to whatever the child needs to suit their learning style and change whenever something isn't getting through to them. A teacher can't they have to meet the needs of the majority of the students in the class. '

For the first statement, yes, if the parent can actually teach, not everyone can. and also they can only really teach what they understand themselves. I'm not really convinced by the 'learn alongside' line....how many of us would be happy for our kids to be taught to drive by another learner? We tend to want lots of expertise and experience. One parent , however well educated, is going to find it tough to cover a full curriculum, and do it all well.

Ratios are obviously better at home. But expertise is better in school. I can't give the kids I teach the time like like, but I am better at explaining stuff because I have in depth subject knowledge, and experience of explaining, cajoling, encouraging, motivating etc . I'm also manically enthusiastic about my subject. I couldn't do that for French, or DT or any number of other subjects, no-one can! I want my kids taught subjects by people who think that their subject is the most interesting, exciting thing on the curriculum, and forthat you need more than one person.

What irks me is that whole every teacher I know will admit that there are advantages of HE, the compliment is often not returned.

In the end we all make our choices based on what we think is more important.

I've sent mine to school because I think that having teachers who are reasonably well educated in the subject that they teach, and enthusiastic about their subject is more important that pupil teacher ratios. If I could have both I would!

I can understand that other people will make other choices.

But while HE has its advantages, it also has some disadvantages, but some people think that this can never be said. and also schooling does have advantages, and these are often never admitted.

And that is the point where I think debate is healthy.

I am considering HE but it seems very scary at the moment. However, when I look back at my own schooling, i kind of think I might be able to do a better job. Of course it all depends on the teacher. Some teachers are wonderful, committed, inspirational, brilliant at communicating to their pupils and getting them to learn without making them feel small,etc. but one has to admit there are a lot of teachers out there who aren't like this - who are bored, uninspired, have to deal with discipline over inspiration, and jaded to the point of not caring any more. I had some teachers like that too, and I trailed in those subjects, when I did not have a natural talent for them. When I went to private school for a year, where i was in a class of 11 and all the teachers seemed passionate about their subjects, my learning capacity soared. So ideally one to one teaching or small classes, I feel, is superior to a large class of children taught by an over worked, under paid and submerged under paper work state school teacher. There are exceptions to the rule [like MB i suspect] But i think they are exceptions.

For a lot of us, "unschooling", ie not actually teaching but facilitating, works really really well

I am increasinly feeling here that a lot of it DOES come down to experience.

If you have seen a child, say, essentially teach themselves to read or count-asking questions and so on of adults (and other kids) around them, but taking control of the learning process, determining how fast they should go and what they need to know at each stage...

...and then seen that kid develop into a confident reader/arithmatician/etc... (I was fortunate enough to see this happening several times with other peoples kids as I knew HErs before my own children were born)

then it is probably much easier to believe that most things CAN be self-taught, and so, if a child seems to have the motivation and desire to teach themselves, and be in control of their own learning, they should be given it.

If anyone wants actual examples of kids self teaching to high levels in pretty much ANY subject, they are out there. Self-taught HErs ("unschoolers") have been to, say, Harvard to do pre-med, law, you name it. It does work, the evidence is there, but I think its perhaps hard to believe if you haven't seen it...

Well I agree with some of what you are saying MB.

I think it's wonderful and very important to have contact with people who are expert and passionate about things which light your fire.

It's just a shame that this seems to be more readily available in schools. There is just too much about the education system that I think is bad/wrong.

I am not anti teachers/teaching. But the more I think about it I think I am anti schools (in their current state).

"When HE is done well, I'm quite sure it is done very, very well. When it is done badly it can be catastropic for the child."

I think this statement applies to school-ed, not HE.

Unless the child is in an abusive home, I can't see how HE even badly done (what is meant by badly done?) is harmful for a child.

Heres a scenario i want going to share but here goes .....ds2 in primary school along with ds1 ds2 was labelled with sen,school applied for band 2 funding(approx £1500) and got it!! claiming son could barely read and write son could read and write had struggled initially due to poor eyesight but this was rectified by strong glasses and imo he was doing well (the opthamologist said b4 glasses he would have been virtually blind-the delay in getting specs was due to another optician but thats a different thread)school failed to say this on the application and claimed for ds2 as he was b4 glasses.....ds2 became increasingly miserable was placed in a lower group uninvolved in many classroom activities as his wellingtom square group (sn reading group)were sent to work with the csa,he was on v low magic key boos despite showing strong interest in the story and we were buying the higher books in whsmiths purely to keep his interest going teachers refused to raise his reading scheme saying he had to read all levels all books before he was upped a grade...yet continually sent boos hed read home as his reading book.
result 1 very miserable and bored child, his blood illness(he has m.e type symptoms too) made him v sleepy so they put him to work in a cold corridor alone.
In the end he was so bound in by this label we had a man from the education dept visit us at home we showed him ds2 capabilities he came with us to a meeting at school and they agreed to remove ds2 from sen!!! BUT then whenever he asked for help in class even to repeat the question he was told oh no you arent welly suare anymore ......other children were asing same questions and teacher was showing them leaving our ds2 having to ask another child what the question was again thereby in effect being taught by a fellow 8 yr old .......eventually a v heavy handed teacher grabbed ds2 on the neck(yes truly) and bruised his neck (because 2 boys picking up jigsaw bits were on the floor together he 'assumed' they were messing about)we took ds2 to docs to make official records i did fone police to see what we could do they were willing with the evidence on the neck to go and interview teacher at school but we put it off (daft really) because we didnt want to stir up trouble however we went to a meeting and told the teacher no way no how was his behaviour acceptable anyway onwards and upwards we thought.......the next week a csa wrongly identified ds2 as a naughty boy despite ds2 telling her 'what you going to do? tell your mum?' she said heard by a dinner lady who had gone to resolve the issue and say it wasnt my ds2 -so disgusted by this she resigned.
Anyway we decided home ed was our only option ds2 had 2 years b4 secondary and we were worried about this sen label - well we had an enjoyable 2 years at home and off he went to 'big' school-hes thriving!!! middle and top sets a pleasure to teach (altho no angel)his school report was glowing!! so a happy ending ....so far.
DS1 at same prinary was identified by an independent person called in by school to see if he too had sen??? as 'gifted' guess what? he was left well alone, no awards in prize assembly once a week nothing.
You might think my face didnt fit? well i was on p.t.a often was thaned in assembly worked voluntarily in school and was offered 3 paid positions in fact several times i took ds3(still in a pram) in school at their request so i could still help- you know why? schools are businesses these days.
How can opinion on 1 child change so much in a short time??
this is why i support home education cos sometimes school is not the best place to learn.

there's one thing that worries me about the OP (I'm not anti- home-ed- considered it for ds1 who is now thriving in school) and it's this:

" I wish she'd want to stay home"

If you do home-ed I'd just say be careful you're not doing it for yourself iyswim (I'd say the same about school/extra curricular activities/anything). That line just set off a few alarm bells for me.

oh and just to expand a little- partly I picked up on that because I was terrified of school for ds1 (severely autistic/severe learning difficulties). I thought there was no way a school could cater for his needs and I was terrified of special schools as its hard to get a child out of special school (you need LEA permission- you can't just de-register). Anyway he went to mainstream and it was an utter disaster. He eventually went to special school and its been fabulous. The school can offer him so much more than I can in terms of experiences, access to equipment, therapies etc. I'm now quite horrified that my fear could have meant that he wouldn't have experienced all that.

That doesn't alter that I think that HE can be good/essential/better than school for an individual child but I think its worth remembering that if you take a happy child out of school you might be removing them from experiences that you can't recreate.

Hurrah to fillyjonk!
3Dd I highly recommend you access the John Holt books (How children learn & How children fail), it's these two books that helped us make the decision we did. Essentially he advocates trusting children that they will learn without interference, children are naturally predisposed to learn and & explore. They may not learn everything the state thinks they should, they may even learn more about certain subjects, but they will learn.
That is the hardest part of HE in my opinion, trusting our kids that they will learn. We don't have to teach, scary as that may sound to some.

Hi,

MO, Of course secondary schools kids are taught be specialist teachers, I obviously didn't make myself clear enough. What I meant was that you spend more years at primary school then secondary school. I didn't go to a weird primary school at all, it was a normal village school with 112 pupils and 4 classes, 2 year groups per class, all the local village primary schools were structured like that and still are, and for the record I really enjoyed my time at school and if I can get my kids into a good primary school and its right for them, I am sure they will go to school when they are ready.

Since then I have worked in 2 primary schools as an LSA/TA about 5/4 years ago (with no training whats so ever, before I started my teaching degree). In one school I used to lead the bottom groups in their maths and english work, I was free to decide how and what I taught them as long as it was relevant to the learning objectives of the day. In the other school I worked in the nursery with the 3 and 4 year olds, a "class" of 30 kids with 1 teacher and 1 TA (me). One of the schools I worked in had 1 teacher per year group and the other had 2 year groups per class (so a new teacher every 2 years). I have also done teaching practice in a school with again 2 year groups per class, so plenty of small schools still operate like that.

All primary school teachers now "specialise" in a subject and that influences planning in the whole school (my speciality was to be English). Depite that they are still actually only taught by one teacher for the vast majority of the day or the entire day in some cases (all the schools I have worked in the kids only had 1 teacher for the entire day). As an English specialist I wouldn't have taught all literacy lessons in the school. Additionally, if a school only has 4 classes, therefore 4 teachers, they will only get 4 specialists.

I appreciate not all schools are like that, I shouldn't have generalised, that was a mistake. Maybe larger schools work differently, I have never worked in a large town infant or junior school. However, I honestly believe that the vast majority of primary schools do not have pupils that are regularly taught by 12 different teachers. I am not saying that is a bad thing, in fact I thinks its great, teachers really get to develop a good realtionship with their class in a way that could never be acheived otherwise. I was simply making the point that all primary school teachers are expected to be able to teach all subjects and in the majority of these subjects they will have no more/little more subject knowledge then a well informed and engaged parent. If a young teacher at 22 years old with a 1 year PGCE is expected to be able to teach all subjects why not a well educated and informed parent? I am not trying to make out all parents would be able to do a good job, but some would. I am not teacher bashing or school bashing, I will probably end up sending my kids to school at some point, maybe 5 or 7 or 11, I will have to make that deicision when the time comes. I am also aware many schools can be a great happy environment and I have worked in 1 very lovely school, I have also worked in 2 bad schools. I completely understand and appreciate why either school/home ed is a valid choice, and do not want to devalue teachers, I have the greatest respect for what they do, what I was questioning was whether all teachers at a primary school level really do have more subject knowledge then a well educated parent.

Sneaks back in....
John Holt Brilliant at putting into words what people know instintivly.
MB and others if you haven't already read his books please do so.
Martin Bishop you really do not trust children, do you? You are probably a very good school teacher, but you only know schooled children the ones who have to be taught, not the ones who know how to find out.

There is a saying that goes.

The schools take all the credit for success, Failure they blame on the student...

My last post on a HE thread for a while, as it's all getting a bit groundhog day, and I've hidden them now.

I really can see where the teachers are coming from.
Of course they want to defend their profession, just as HE families want to defend their choices.

We took our children out of school because of necessity - our youngest son in particular was being destroyed by the system.

And that is not an over-exaggeration.

I found out about HE by accident (DH saw a EO sticker on the back of a car when he was stuck in a traffic jam!), and we didn't know any other HE families when we de-registered DS2.

It was one of the most terrifying times of my life!

But the change in DS2 was almost immediate, and the sense of panic I felt began to diminish.

I am just worried that parents in the same situation that we were in (dreading a phone call from school to say that their child has tried to leave the premises to come home yet again; listening to their child cry themselves to sleep because tomorrow is a school day; seeing their child excluded from parties because they are so stressed at school that they haven't been able to form friendships etc,etc,etc) may read these threads and think that HE is somehow odd or strange or damaging.

Of course school can be wonderful. My primary school days were idyllic, and I used to cry in the school holidays because I couldn't go in.

But the reality for my children was not the same.

It just wasn't.

But they are fine now.

DS2 can read - he has just been assessed and his reading level is the same as a child of the same age who doesn't have dyslexia.

His sense of self-worth has returned, and he is now starting to work really hard on his writing.

And I KNOW that this wouldn't have happened if he was in school, because it was a scary place for him, and he wasn't learning because he wanted to succeed, but no-one was teaching him in a way that made sense to him.

Because they didn't have the time.

So it is important that these HE threads stay positive about HE. And the stereotypes are challenged.

I don't think school is best for all children.
I don't think HE is best for all children.

But I do think we need to respect the decisions we have each made for our children, and accept that we are all doing our best.

And I think it is vital that people considering HE are given access to as much information, and as many informed opinions as possible.

I wish we'd had this resource when we made the decision, because we felt very alone, and very scared - and if we can stop that happening to other families, surely that is a good thing?

I completely agree with you HC, well said. Its such an emotive subject when anyone questions each other people feel under attack but I think the questioning is imperative. There are a lot of myths about HE that need to be questioned just as there are a lot of "truths" about school that I think also need to be questioned. No one wants to make teachers feel bad, there are some truly excellent teachers who love their job and are fantastic at it, just as there are great teachers who are completely dissolutioned with the system and there are poor teachers as well. There are also great schools, good school and bad schools. There are kids that love and thrive in a school environment, kids who enjoy school but do not acheive their potential and kids who simply survive. If all this helps one family make a decision (either way) then its worth it!

I must admitt I have always had a problem with the broiler system of educating young kids, not the teachers or even the schools, the system (SATS and other yearly testing, rigid numeracy and literacy, making young children sit still and listen instead of playing and exploring, etc etc)particularly for the really young ones, it seems to kill many kids creative spirit and desire to actually learn. However, I assumed it was just something that had to be endured, a downside that could not be got around when you have classes of 30 as you need structure. I didn't know much about HE at all till I found this place, read the links that people suggested (particularly Julie) and now I am really getting excited about the possibilities. Without the questioning that goes on here I think I would have just accepted a lot of my assumptions as being true and never even considered HE as an option.

Discover life you say to me

'Martin Bishop you really do not trust children, do you? You are probably a very good school teacher, but you only know schooled children the ones who have to be taught, not the ones who know how to find out.'

I'm sorry but I object to this totally. I factor in learning opportunities in all my lessons. You haven't met me, have never seen me teach, and have no idea of what goes on in my lessons, so how you feel qualified to say this, is beyond me.

Actually I teach lots of children who know 'how to find out' I help them to do it more effectively! I've just spent the last two evening working on a sequence of lesson that do just this! We call them learning skills.

REe John Holt, and excellent study of what was happening in American education 40 odd years ago

Over the weekend I took DS2 up to his Grandmothers who is having him for a week. Within 20 minutes of being their she said he had 'grown up'. I thought that was a weird thing to say and we sat down and had a natter about it. She see's it much more clearly than I do as she hasn't seen DS2 since Christmas when we took him out of school and her perpective of DS2 isn't gradual like mine is.
So we figured out that DS2 was constantly acting the fool to get acceptance in school (it never worked) constantly playing up his disability etc. and the habit flowed over to home life. Now he knows he doesn't have to go back to school he has dropped the childish behaviour.

X post. Martinbishop. I am sorry for the personal attack it was uncalled for.

I did speak to my cousin who is a teacher having qualified in the last couple of years and asked her how much training did you do in actually 'Teaching', she said 'not much', most of her training was in how to fill in forms, lesson plan formation, crowd control, how to spot the 'difficult' ones (the SEN's or the bored too bright ones). Laws and regulations etc. None of which are applicable here as HE parents do not need to do that lot. All it needs is dedicated parents willing to do what is right for their particular child.
BTW DH has a degree, so he has proved his intelligence, he did think about becoming a teacher at one point, but the pay wasn't good enough to put up with the risks. I didn't go further than 'O' levels, (one of the too bright ones, school bored me silly).

It was uncalled for, but thank you for the appology, which I accept.

My 4 yo DS loves school. He has made friends and learnt a lot of new skills (not just the obvious ones). Through the school I've met new people. DD can't wait until its her turn to go to school.

I can understand people taking their kids out of school if they are really not coping, but I think it's a shame not to give them the chance.

Hi Scatty, I think its great that you little one loves school, it is always nice to hear positive school stories. I know what you mean about not giving kids the chance but I do think my kids will go to school, it is just a case of when. Also, I think that you could also say its a shame that school kids miss out on all the opportunites home ed kids have, so it works both ways.

I'm not convinced that school children do miss out totally on home education.

My kids (and I'm sure this is true of all the kids of the people on MN) do all sorts of things at home and in out of school activities, in term time and in the holidays.

This last half term we did the following
Looking for fossils (the rock cycle and erosion, evolution and natural selection)
Explored a smugglers cove (history)
Went to a museum of the second world war (History)
Went to Whitby Abbey (literature, RE and history)
Went to the Cook monument (History and geography)
Swam lots! (PE)
Went on a steam train (history, energy conversions-physics)
Went to the Whitby museum....saw a real Hand of Glory....not sure what educational use this was but it had a great 'Yuck' factor
Went to Scarborough castle (History, geology)
Cooking together (Food tech)

Don't most people do stuff with their kids out of school? I'm sure that they do.

I was home educated until I was 13. I had a wonderful time and was academically very advanced in some areas. It was also fab to be able to get what had to be done out of the way in the a couple of hours and then concentrate on other stuff. I did choir and Guides and dance classes. There was no organization like Eo in those days but I met regularly with my parents' friends and their children. I was not lonely, and I mixed with a lot of other children. However, I do feel that I missed out on a lot that my childern at school get as a matter of course - some obvious, some less subtle. The obvious. I played no team games. I was never in a school production. I played an instrument but wasn't in an orchestra. When I went to school, I discovered that I loved doing all of these things.

The more subtle things. I mixed with a lot of people, but largely all like minded. I may not have liked them all, but I was BROADLY on the same wavelength. The were often the children's of my parents' friends.
I never had to learn to rub along with uncongenial people - and I never had the delight of finding a kindred spirit in a very unlikely place. My children have mixed with children who could be from a different planet, their life experiences are so different!

When I went to Guides and so on, I was very conscious of being in the group but not of it - tha other children had experiences i just didn't share. However close the friendships were, I was always slightly on the edge.

And another think I never learnt til I was an adult - (and it was a hard lesson when I started work, let me tell you!) -was that sometimes - quite often actually - you just have to do stuff even if it's boring. You just have to get on and get it done.

I cold go on - and I will if anyone's interested. But one last point. I think home education is brilliant in some circumstances. But I do worry (and I'm not saying this applies to anyone here) about the increasing number of people who are home education to "protect" their children from exposure to ideas they don't like. Like evolution, for example. Somebody said that they couldn't see how home education could be damaging. Believe me, in those circumstances it can be.

I 'lost' a child to HE because his parents did not want him to learn about any religion other than Christianity. That worried me more than a little and I did think that it was damaging.

I agree re mixing with all kinds of people. DS has friends from all walks of life. He makes no discrimination. Its a good thing I think.