Be honest, I want everyone's views......what do you think of home ed???

[3Ddonut]

I suspect this may get nasty, but please try to keep it nice ladies (and gents) I really like the idea of home ed, I would dearly love to home ed my dc but there are some problems, firstly I work 3 nights a week and my dh works 2 full days,my eldest dd is 5 and she really loves school, but some of things that she says about school unsettle me, I always said that it is their choice if they want to go to school or not, which is why she is there and my ds is in nursery but I wish she'd want to stay home and the longer that she's there, the more I feel that we're wasting time...

I've read a lot of the other threads and see that you can do some home-ed stuff alongside school but I don't think that it's enough for me, I want them to remain interested and not be moved on from one thing too quickly or forced to spend time on things they dislike.

We're already a close family because of mine and dh's shifts there is nearly always someone in the house and we get to spend a lot of time with the kids. I suppose I'd just like it to be more of the same.

My main concerns are that the dc would resent us for it in the future (although I would not take a happy child out of school) I also worry about the effect of home ed-ing the children would have on future employers and university places, I do worry about the socialisation aspect although the kids are in a few groups and are very social, they interact well with adults as well as other children, I'm concerned about how much time I'd have to work with them with working full time myself (no opportunity to cut hours)

I'm going round in circles at the min, I think my ds would be more open to the idea and I'm considering not sending dd2 to nursery at all.

The other biggie is that the school they attend is out of area and it's a really good one, they wouldn't get back in there if we deregistered, I've considered flexi-schooling but I feel that would bring more problems than solutions....

OK, Open fire!!!

I don't have any experience yet of secondary school - my dd has only just started year 7, so I am talking about Primary school.

And I am going to put the cat amongst the pigeons well and truly. We do spend quite a bit of time with the HE lot - we have friends who are very committed to the idea. And when we can (baker days and so on) we join in on outings and stuff. And my observation is that the families are drawn from a much narrower socio-economic group than the school parents - and from my dc's school friends. And I think the mix is important.

Got to go - I'll address the bullying issue later, if the thread's still running!

Thats funny isn't it Seeker, just goes to show everyone has different experiences. Maybe my secondary school was unusual, I am certainly not pretending to be an expert!

I would say my primary school friends did come from a much wider range of backgrounds than my secondary school friends. However as there were only 5 other girls in the year thats not saying much!!

My three children went to school-the eldest until he was nearly 14.

So they do know the difference between being home educated and schooled.

They are 20, 18 and 15 now. They have/had a social life that is the envy of their schooled peers and cousins.
All three say they are definitely going to home educate.
But then they also say they are wondering if they should send their children to school to begin with-as they believe all of their friends who have never been to school have no idea how lucky they are.

Thats an interesting theory your children have Julie. I am as sure as I can be (without being in the situation yet) that I don't want to send a 4 year old to school as I do not think a formal learning environment is right at that age. The question will be if/when I send them to school, 5/7/11? Should children go to school to experience it, they can always leave at a later date? Do I want a young child of mine to be constantly tested? Could I live with the guilt of knowing there is an alternative and still sending them to school if they don't get on in a school environment? Could I live with the guilt of never letting them try school? Particularly as I now live in the same school catchments that I grew up in, so they would go to the same schools.

Actually I have noticed that my dd has formed a circle of friends very much more "like her" in Secondary school - that it, middle class white girls - than she did at Primary. I don't like it, but sadly it's true.

I think it's important to remembeer that a good Reception class is a very long way from a "formal learning environment" My ds only started to encounter one of those at the beginning of this year when he was nearly 7 and went into year 2. About the right time, in my opinion. And there's nothing special about our very bog-standard Primary school!

OK, thought maybe my school was just a one off! I think once you get to "big school" the herding instinct begins to come into effect so you tend to stick in safe groups with people like you.

It is quite nice to hear you say about the lack of formal learning. When I have "taught" and observed (on teaching placement so only for a few weeks)a class of reception and year 1 kids it was very formal. I have worked mainly with junior ages kids and nursery kids so I am def not an expert on early years education. Its nice to know not all schools are so formal, I suppose I will just have to investigate our local school nearer the time. Its just nice to start thinking of questions and challenging assumptions.

Also, I think the downside of our local secondary school is that it is the only state school for the town and surrounding villages but there are 3 private schools all competing with it (including the famous Bedales) in the same 'catchment' are, so they act a bit like grammar schools. This leaves the "smart middle class kids" as a minority group so they club together for "safety".

But actually holt DIDN'T just comment on the american schooling system

Direct criticism and analysis of the school system was a very small part of his work, really.

Most of his writing is about how children learn, and that has not changed very much

Also, unlike his contemporaries (Kozol, Neill, Hernadon etc) his criticism of the school system is very broad, and not specific to the American/British school system.

I think I am correct in saying that a significant way that people become aware of Holt is at teacher training college, BUT that there, only his earliest books tend to be mentioned, in particular "How Children Fail" and "How Children Learn". These were both written while he was teaching, and are in part actual accounts of his life in the classroom.

His later books are, IMO, much more interesting. They are where his ideas actually develop.

Homeschoolers are usually talking about the later books (say, Teach Your Own, though that is NOT his most interesting book) , teachers the earlier books, IME, and this does cause some confusion.

But the books were written a good long time ago. I know that Holt nver significant;y changed his views, but his books have to be seen in the light of the work that has been done since, like all research. And in the changes in schools that have happened since he first wrote his books.

Hi 3Ddonut.Interesting thread you have startedHaven't waded through it all yet.
We home ed ds1 who is 8.5.At first we were quite rigid in our approach[time table etc]but as time has gone on we are much more relaxed and let him do the things he wants to do.We do what I call 'constructive strewing'where we leave things of interest lying around the house!
Ds1 went to school in uk for a year,then we moved to Ireland and found that our happy,inquisitive little boy found reading a chore,and stopped doing the things he did naturally.
If we find a school that we all like then he will go but we haven't yet.
There are many different approaches to home ed[as I am sure you know].Some families don't impose any structure on their children and others have a very rigid timetable.Then there are all the different approaches in between.Our ds liked school for the play time but we make sure he sees friends,takes part in activities etc.
Sometimes we have had to have nerves of steel.But I think that is more to do with our conditioning.I t is a learning curve for parents too,who have often been through the school process.
It depends what you want for your family.
Hope some of this made sense[typing fast as baby due to wake].
Some people know it's the right thing and others can fluctuate over the years[that is quite normal!].
I wish you the best of luck.

like what, mb?

What specifically has happened in schools that makes holt outdated?

Have schools become non compulsory, for example?

Are children allowed to choose what they learn, and when they want to learn it?

Has testing been abolished?

Has it been made illegal to keep records on a child with the child's consent?

If not-well, schools haven't actually addressed the issues he raises.

Well put Fillyjonk.

well, one of the things that he raises is that a child cannot leearn if they are fearful (which is obviusly quite correct). A large part of my training as a PGCE student, and sebsequent INSETs etc have re-inforced this. Schools no longer use corporal punishment, which Holt (rightly) spoke out about. The standard pof care in most classrooms in infinitly better than when I went to school, intimidation is nolonger a comment event.

You only have to look at the development of nurture groups in schools, and the understanding that a human cannot learn if stressed, which is central to modern classroom practce.

An yes, people still do get things wrong, but it is no longer the norm as it was when I was a child.

also formative assessment, self and peer marking, the concept of 'embedding' new learning in practical tasks etc VAK.

All of thse have changed schooling beyond measure

But mb, classes are still very large, and resources stretched, my sister is an [excellent] music teacher and instills a great love for music in her students, but she is totally snowed under with admin and works well into the evenings and weekends to get everything done. I just feel that there is too much strain on teachers and that only the most committed and compassionate can really teach well.

and even then i don't know for how long. My sister is so exhausted she is considering applying to private schools...

I'd agree in a heart beat that class sizes tend to be too large and the paperwork is often a pointless farce.

But the 'terrifying the child' scenarios that Hold (correctly) talked about in the 60s have largly gone now.

and schooling is non complusory in the UK

"Are children allowed to choose what they learn, and when they want to learn it?"

I have a bit of an issue with this one. Doee this always work? If my ds was allowed always to do this, he would be even more knowlegable about Premiership football than he is already but would probably know nothing at all about anything else! And what if they decide they want to go to university and haven't ever "chosen" to do the basic maths and english you need to get in?

Has it been made illegal to keep records on a child with the child's consent?

I don't know - but I'm not sure what this means - could you say more

I think there's a missing "out": she means "Has it been made illegal to keep records on a child without the child's consent?" and the other thread in the HE forum kind of gives the answer to that question...

Seeker - the idea of children autonomously learning is alien to the school system but very common within HE.

I'm not really interested in getting into a debate about whether or not it "works" just now. Rest assured that many in the HE community think that structured learning is just as bizarre and dangerous as most people in the school community think self-directed learning is.

Well, that's me tellt - as they say!

It does rather beg the question why contribute to the thread if you're not interested in debating the subject........

How can children give consent?

Minors can't legally give consent to contractual stuff

I just wanted to clarfy Fillyjonk's missing 'out', and to explain that autonomous education is common among HEers, not some weird loopy thing Fillyjonk had randomly come up with.

But I have no energy for debating on these threads at the moment. No offence meant.

Structured learning dangerous

Now I've heard it all

Most children thrive on structured learning - the human brain loves to classify

I don't think I suggested that it was fillyjonk's personal eccentricity.. I do know what autonomous learning is. I didn't say it was dangerous or bizarre. Sorry you're not up for a debate - another day perhaps!

We HE autonomously. I fail to see why we need structure to learn tbh. Things like basic maths & English are very hard to avoid even in child-led learning as they are so much of our everyday lives. I challenge you to try one day without doing anything remotely connected to either subject .

Cam is it a completely risible idea that learning structured by OTHER PEOPLE not by oneself might be dangerous? It would be good if you could explain how the human mind thrives on externally imposed structure.

HE's must be imposing structured learning on their children albeit not in a classroom