Regretting taking kids out of school.

[apocketfulofposy]

Posting here for traffic,sorry.

I have 5 children ranging from aged 6 to 10 weeks old.

We always planned to home educate after reading a book about it when ds1 and 2 were toddlers,then when ds1 was about 4 and a half,and i was pregnant with baby number 4,i decided to give our local primary a go,partly because it was just that time where he would of been going and partly because i was finding it hard with them all at home (no family on either side for 3 hours,husband who works away monday to friday,rural ish area,i cant even drive!).

Anyway reception was ok,he liked it,made plenty of friends,dc2 and 3 went to the pre school and liked it,except dc2 had lots of issues with hitting other children and just general destructive behaviour.

When ds1 started yr1 last year he hated it from the word go,he still liked seeing his friends but he really noticed the change between mostly play to mostly lessons,plus his teacher left after a term and the new one was very strict and spoke to the children like she was some kind of prison officer.

Ds2 started reception and seemed to enjoy it but after a few weeks i was called in a few times about his hitting and destroying things,they said he just physically wasnt ready to be at schoolt hat much so put him down to half days,which was a bit of a faff for me as i was in and out all day but it was fine.It didnt seem to help though and he was behaving worse and worse at school,especially at lunchtime,but strangely his behaviour at home was getting better.

Add to this the fact i was finding it hard carting them all around everywhere and i felt crap because i kept forgetting to reply to things and i kept hearing all this micheal gove stuff,i just decided to pull them out,id been thinking about it on and off for a while and just thought do it,and id id it almost on a bit of a whim.

The first few weeks were great and we all loved the novelty of not rushing around in mornings and the kids have been playing all day,and actually one good point is that they have been getting on so much better.

But apart from that i am starting to regret taking them out,i miss the routine,i miss being able to take the babies to their groups and talking to my "mummy friends"(cringe) i miss being able to go to the shop quickly with just the double buggy,i also just dont know what to do with them,and the house is just such a mess!

I know these are'nt huge things but its starting to feel chaotic and i can feel it going back to the way it used to be,before school,and it hink i underestimated how much it did for all of us.I just dont know what to do!

Help and advice please!xxxxx

I only have a few seconds....hallo from another home educator....I will try to come back later to read the whole thread and add something which fits in with where ever the discussion has got to. Bye.

It may be that the OP may in the end decide that school is the right option for her children...but I think helping her look for solutions to the problem of lack of support and any other difficulties, from a home ed perspective, so that she can then make an informed choice of what is best for her family at this time, is more constructive than wading through and answering a wave of "this shouldn't be legal" "how can you unschool if they have never been to school?!" "autonomous education doesn't mean letting them play all day" and "send 'em back!" posts

Of course not- you do put words into my mouth! She has no support network , her family is away , her husband is away, she has no local groups, she has no transport!
However the cavalry have now turned up from the HE boards and the picture is rosy- anyone can do it, whatever their situation, and it has to be better than school ANY school. Sadly the LEA has no power to check the sort of education they are getting.

There are poor HEors and poor schooling parents. But autonomous learning does not make one a poor HEor. Things can always be worked out if whatever you choose as a parent is important to you.

I know a lot of autonomous HEors (ie. ones whose children are allowed to spend most of the day playing if that is what they want to do) who are also experienced teachers. I'm sure I can find some for anyone to chat to who is dubious about the effectiveness about such an education. It has an incredibly strong theoretical base that has been proven to be true in many, many families over a very long period of time now.

You do not need to be any more organised to HE than you do to send your children to school. In fact, I'd argue you need to be more organised to be an engaged schooling parent. I have four children. I would have to be hugely organised to get them all up and dressed for school every morning, make sure their uniforms are all clean and ironed, make sure they all had lunch boxes and PE kits and swimming gear and food for food tech and and and... I'd have to be really on the ball to make sure they all did their pointless homework and handed it in on time.

HE means I can watch them, see what makes them tick, what thrills them and excites them. It's in those things that the learning really happens. It's in the watching of endless minecraft videos that they get inspired to learn how to make and edit their own videos. In the turning somersaults on their beds that inspire them to take up gymnastics. In the playing endless Harry Potter games with their friends that inspires them to take up drama classes. In the reading endless books that inspires them to write their own stories. In the playing Minecraft in creative mode that inspires them to design their own structures, to think about beauty and aesthetics and art. In the watching of films that inspires them to think and talk about story and the structure of good stories, about morals and good and evil. It's in the playing with dinosaurs that leads them to ask to visit the Natural History Museum, that leads to discussions about evolution and biology. It's in the winter beachcombing that leads to understanding fossils and geology.

When you have the trust to sit back and allow your children the space to explore their lives and you find joy in observing and facilitating their joy, you see the most wonderful, amazing things happen. You see learning in the most unlikely of places. You hear your children tell you things you have no idea how they learnt it. You see them interacting with other adults in the most mature ways you never trained them to do, asking the richest, most interesting questions you never imagined they'd come up with.

BUT...you have to trust. You have to read and talk and gain as much understanding about it as possible so you can can really, genuinely trust. And you have to be there, engaging with them, helping them to do the things they love, not stopping them for arbitrary reasons (usually culturally engrained things).

Don't knock autonomous learning until you've really, really tried to understand it and met the many, many fulfilled, happy adults who were lucky enough to have such a rich upbringing.

We are autonomous HEers and you really will see them learning as they play. In lots of countries yours would not have even started school yet so you really dont need to worry about formal learning.
It sounds like you are just dealing with the pressure of having 5 young kids rather than problems with HE. I only have 3 under 4 and we still have bad weeks! Just relax and try to work out how to best stop the chaos! Mine always seem better when we get out and do things but it had been difficult over winter and we have had very grouchy little ones some days and it drives me nuts! But I really dont see how school would help! Especially (as for me and you) there'd still be multiple children at home and you'd have to faff about getting everyone ready for school runs!
If you are missing your mummy friends could you invite them round or meet them somewhere where your kids could run about a bit ( soft play, park, beach etc) so you could chat!
Something I find helpful is setting up an activity or toy that they've not played with in a while in the evening so that in the morning there's something interesting for them to do if they fancy it - it means they're slightly less likely to be at each other's throats and gives me a chance to sort myself and the baby out and figure out what we might do that day!
Hope you get some support and real life friends who can support you in a practical way and who dont just want you to get your kids back to school! And I hope you have a lovely day :-)

HE as a principle is fine. This woman isn't educating anybody though, she's having an unscheduled holiday, letting them do whatever they like. Of course they are happier and more relaxed, that's the point of holidays. Sadly life isn't a long holiday though unless you fancy a lifetime on the dole, children need education.

Did you read my post, Eirikur? Although there is no formal evidence, it is clear to those of us who know a great deal of autonomous home educators that autonomous learning has a far higher 'success' rate in terms of adults not being NEET than schooling does. It's dangerous to assume that being in school will automatically result in educational success.

'Although there is no formal evidence' that's right. I'd like to see some evidence before I accept that.
Of course formal education doesn't guarantee success. But unschooling guarantees that your children will a)miss out on vital learning blocks that will be necessary for any kind of higher education and b) struggle hugely to fit I'm with a world that expects people to follow guidance, adhere to rules and meet certain expectations.

"But unschooling guarantees that your children will a)miss out on vital learning blocks that will be necessary for any kind of higher education and b) struggle hugely to fit I'm with a world that expects people to follow guidance, adhere to rules and meet certain expectations."

I'm not sure how you can make that statement. It certainly guarantees nothing of the sort. My unschooled children have a huge amount of amassed knowledge and skills and many unschooled teens take exams if they find they need them for any further education they want to undertake. Universities seem to have no problem accepting unschooled students. In America they positively welcome them - dynamic learners who are there because they really want to be, not because it's the next thing one does on the conveyor belt of education, are very valuable students. That trend is starting to be noticed over here. There are lots of unschooled adults who have got very good degrees and advanced degrees. Unschooling definitely isn't a block to academic excellence.

And my unschooled children also manage perfectly well to take part in many organised classes and activities with rules and expectations. In fact, I don't think they've been to one group where the leaders haven't been very impressed by their contribution and where they haven't been very valued as members of that group. I've seen the same in many other families.

So I've just proven that your statement is completely erroneous.

I always think, all of the autonomous learning stuff is true. Reading lots of books can lead to writing stories, playing mine craft can lead to designing own computer games, however, surely all of this can be done at weekends and school holidays too? As an addition to going to school?

But what is the point of school if you can learn all you need at home, melonribena? To me it seems like a waste of a huge amount of your time. There's nothing really you are taught (which is different from learning) at school that you can't learn at home except for a whole heap of stuff I don't want my children learning, like an unquestioning acceptance of authority based on someone's title, how to 'play' the playground game so you leave school each day unscathed...OMG I could list thousands that I don't want to.

To an unschooler, the only potential point to school would be the chance to see your friends every day - it's certainly been the only draw for my children. Easily fixed by finding more opportunities for them to meet with their friends. And even the 'seeing your friends more' comes with downsides at school ie. when you have to see them every day even if you don't want to.

"If I didn't understand the difference between 'should have' and 'should of', OP, then I really wouldn't home-ed."

Plenty of school teachers who don't use English properly, Claudius. If we sacked all the teachers who couldn't spell or got things wrong sometimes, we'd have no teachers in schools! And then how would your children learn anything???

You can learn lots at home but school offers unique experiences. The chance to spread your wings and develop outside the home is the major one for me. To come home and talk about your day and develop independence that will help you in future life.

I'm not anti homeschooling, I feel it can work well, but I think it can also not work well. My 18 mth old gets bored 'playing' all day!

"You should take convenience out of the equation as your primary decision point."

this sort of puritan nonsense on mn really annoys me. The OP has 5 children, no car, and an ill husband. I think she should put convenience pretty high on her list of factors to consider. Not to be selfish - but because whatever she does has to work with one woman's energy behind it, so she has to be clever about how she uses that energy and not piss it away on quixotic high-minded idealistic quests. Anything that has workability and convenience built into it at the outset has a greater chance of making everyone in this family happy.

But at home they're only learning your way.

HE I'm sure can work very well, but I don't think an education system would have been set up if everyone was merrily home educating. Gosh, what a waste of taxpayers' money funding schools! All this time and we just didn't need them!

"You can learn lots at home but school offers unique experiences. The chance to spread your wings and develop outside the home is the major one for me. To come home and talk about your day and develop independence that will help you in future life."

I find autonomous home education expands my children's lives, actually, so the opposite of what you suppose. My children do lots outside of the home and independently of me. And I can't think of a unique experience that school can provide that my children can't get without being in school. Give me some examples.

"But at home they're only learning your way."

No way! That is not it at all! At home they're learning their way. Not the way all the other 29 children in their class has to learn. Not the way the teacher thinks they should learn, or the NC. The way they learn. My children all learn very differently from one another and, as an autonomous home educator, I have the space and time to learn how they learn and support and facilitate that.

"I don't think an education system would have been set up if everyone was merrily home educating. Gosh, what a waste of taxpayers' money funding schools! All this time and we just didn't need them!"

Hmm...I think you need to read more into the history of mass schooling. It's not as pretty as you might think. Of course we don't need schools - society is just schooled into thinking we do. The powers that be of the time were quite open about mass schooling being about creating a workforce of people who would do as they were told; about splitting the classes so that society had a neat group of consumers and a neat group of providers. There is lots of rather sinister stuff in the development of mass schooling if you dig deep enough.

Schools are wonderful places for children whose home life is severely lacking in some way, for children whose home life is unsafe or they are neglected. But they are far, far, far from necessary.

HE as a principle is fine. This woman isn't educating anybody though, she's having an unscheduled holiday, letting them do whatever they like. Of course they are happier and more relaxed, that's the point of holidays. Sadly life isn't a long holiday though unless you fancy a lifetime on the dole, children need education.

I would love to find a home educated person who's on the dole so I can find out where their parents went wrong & try & avoid doing the same but unfortunately iv only ever found schooled people in the job centre, come to think of it in prisons as well. You are right children do need an education & that's why a lot of parents are giving their children the best possible education. They are teaching them how to live in the real world. Just because they're not learning it from a text book or learning what someone else thinks they need to learn doesn't mean they are not getting an education.

I have both of Sandra Dodds books,i used to read them a lot and that was basically our life but when they atarted school i found myself slipping into doing things just like everyone else,and its been difficult to get back to the way it was before they went to school,it really changed them,they are a lot better already though.

My eldest has been playing minecraft since he woke up and ds2 helped me make pancakes for breakfast and is now outside digging up worms with his sister.Toddler is in the garden where i can see him and baby is feeding.

My friend is coming over later with her baby and she is going to look after the older 4 while i have a rest(or put all the clean washing away!)

When i think about it i do have offers of support i just need to take people up on it more.

Oh look, the usual stomach full of bile for anyone who dares step out of the tiny circle of normal. What a surprise.

If i was the op I wouldn't be coming back but just in case you are still here I would like to say this.

I'm glad that the school system exists and provides an option for those families it works for.
I'm glad the option to he exists because that's what works for us.

The bloke that set up the open university was home educated. He wanted to carry on his model of learning through degree level. I would say he was rather successful

Sorry posted to soon.

Only you know if this is right for your family so I'm not going to try and I fluency your decision, allow yourself a seven settling in period, create routines etc try and make it work and if its nor for you then at least you know you gave it a shot :)

Another home educator here. I have a more structured approach because my son has HFA and needs it, but these are my thoughts on the OP's situation:

One of the most successful home educating families I know has eight children who are all well mannered, socially adept, friendly kids who are doing very well indeed. They have an autonomous approach to HE and the older ones (teens) are self-driven about which subjects they study.

Children who are relaxed and happy in their environment learn better than those who aren’t. That's just common sense. I don't suppose OP's children would get much out of school if they are miserable there.

Some of the poorest grammar I have ever witnessed was from primary school teachers. This includes 'should of'. Don't get me started on apostrophes.

There’s a lot of misunderstanding here about autonomous home education. The child led can be extremely successful, as several autonomous folk here have shown."

"We have one of the best education systems in the world". Hahahahahaha! Seriously? Perhaps I imagined my son's catastrophic experiences in two schools, as have all the other parents with similar stories. Five years after deregistration I'm still repairing some of the damage. Best education systems? What rubbish.

Ommmward's post was magnificent, as ever

OP, it seems to me that your main problem is not about where and how your children are educated, but organisation of your life generally - this is where I would start to make changes. I agree with those who've suggested you learn to drive as a priority as it will make everything easier. I wish you and your family the best of luck.

I'm staggered that the LEA make no checks on what education children who are home-schooled are getting. I've nothing against home-ed in principle, but the OP sounds massively ill-equipped to be providing it, I think Erikur hit the nail on the head. No disrespect intended to you OP, managing 5 young children and a home with very little support and restricted access to facilities because of your location and transport restrictions sounds like bloody hard work. I couldn't do it, I wouldn't dream of taking full responsibility for their education as well in that situation.

Sorry to break it to you, Bakingtins, but your children's education is fully your responsibility whether you choose to send to them to school or not. Just sayin'.