Regretting taking kids out of school.

[apocketfulofposy]

Posting here for traffic,sorry.

I have 5 children ranging from aged 6 to 10 weeks old.

We always planned to home educate after reading a book about it when ds1 and 2 were toddlers,then when ds1 was about 4 and a half,and i was pregnant with baby number 4,i decided to give our local primary a go,partly because it was just that time where he would of been going and partly because i was finding it hard with them all at home (no family on either side for 3 hours,husband who works away monday to friday,rural ish area,i cant even drive!).

Anyway reception was ok,he liked it,made plenty of friends,dc2 and 3 went to the pre school and liked it,except dc2 had lots of issues with hitting other children and just general destructive behaviour.

When ds1 started yr1 last year he hated it from the word go,he still liked seeing his friends but he really noticed the change between mostly play to mostly lessons,plus his teacher left after a term and the new one was very strict and spoke to the children like she was some kind of prison officer.

Ds2 started reception and seemed to enjoy it but after a few weeks i was called in a few times about his hitting and destroying things,they said he just physically wasnt ready to be at schoolt hat much so put him down to half days,which was a bit of a faff for me as i was in and out all day but it was fine.It didnt seem to help though and he was behaving worse and worse at school,especially at lunchtime,but strangely his behaviour at home was getting better.

Add to this the fact i was finding it hard carting them all around everywhere and i felt crap because i kept forgetting to reply to things and i kept hearing all this micheal gove stuff,i just decided to pull them out,id been thinking about it on and off for a while and just thought do it,and id id it almost on a bit of a whim.

The first few weeks were great and we all loved the novelty of not rushing around in mornings and the kids have been playing all day,and actually one good point is that they have been getting on so much better.

But apart from that i am starting to regret taking them out,i miss the routine,i miss being able to take the babies to their groups and talking to my "mummy friends"(cringe) i miss being able to go to the shop quickly with just the double buggy,i also just dont know what to do with them,and the house is just such a mess!

I know these are'nt huge things but its starting to feel chaotic and i can feel it going back to the way it used to be,before school,and it hink i underestimated how much it did for all of us.I just dont know what to do!

Help and advice please!xxxxx

I get the impression that a lot of HEs want to keep their children close, rather than helping them to soar.

Joyfully rejoycycling or whatever it is called is written by Joyce Fetteroll, although it took me quite a while to actually find her name. It is a very well written, clear site which answers just about every question you could think of in a clear manner and didn't make me laugh at the sheer hilarity of some of the things you are supposed to go through as the mother.
It took me ages to find out about her children. She has one daughter ( much easier with one who is outnumbered by the adults) and I couldn't find a single picture and beyond knowing that she is good on the guitar I know nothing else about her. That is how it should be, her privacy is protected.
I took exception to 'how to do without spanking' and 'how to do without yelling' as if that is what happens in traditional parenting. I was never smacked as a child and I have never smacked mine.I don't yell and I don't get yelled at.
I would bet that Joyce Fetteroll, her husband and DD are perfectly sane people and they won't be radically unschooling Kat when she is 26 years old.
I don't agree with the half of it,but it is a very useful site for those who want to take that route. Sandra Dodd could take lessons from her.

I think it is 'give them roots but keep the wings clipped', anchories.
I think it stands a good chance of working with one child and 2 responsible adults. 2 or more children make for difficulties.

I don't know whether it's true or not, and I say this with my tongue at lest partially wedged into my cheek, but to me there seems to be two distinct types of stereotypical home educators. Those who are total control freak disciplinarians and don't want their children to develop any challenging ideas or opinions outside of those fed to them by their parents, and their polar opposites, the ones who are so barmily libertarian that their spirited' PFBs can't deal with any boundaries or structure whatsoever, and would be a total PITA for any mainstream school anyway.

Wow what a mammoth thread - it's taken me days to read the whole thing!

I've HEd DD for the last two years and have just made the decision to decline the secondary school place for which we applied in October. Big decision but hopefully the best one for her.

Very interesting reading all the different opinions and concerns about HE (from the thoughtful and interested to the ignorant and rude), and the replies from HEers.

I'm happy to answer any questions anyone has, but as the thread seems to be dying down a bit now - Tamer I think you're single-handedly keeping the fires alight now - I won't pile in unless anyone asks me a question/ for an opinion.

Michello I say this with my tongue wedged at least partially into my cheek, but I reckon that your post falls into the latter category I mentioned.

Michelle- yep. There are a few in both those categories. And then there's everyone else. I think you forgot to mention everyone else, didn't you?

I've been reading the links that people put up too, and just had a look at the 'kids who say they hate being homeschooled' one.

Just wanted to make clear that the forum is 'the well trained mind' one; I;ve not come across the forum but have read the book and that whole philosophy is as far from autonomous education as you can get. It's about a classically-based academic education. People following that path with their children are usually doing so, I would imagine, because they don't think that the state school system (it's written by an American) can deliver the kind of in depth and rigorous education that they want for their children. It's certainly not in the same ball park as Sandra Dodd and I would imagine that many of those children quite fancy the easier time of it that they'd probably have at school.

Disclaimer - I haven't read the whole of that forum thread and don't know anyone who has followed the well trained mind curriculum as it's pretty full on. I just thought people might be interested in a bit of background.

but to me there seems to be two distinct types of stereotypical home educators. Those who are total control freak disciplinarians and don't want their children to develop any challenging ideas or opinions outside of those fed to them by their parents, and their polar opposites, the ones who are so barmily libertarian that their spirited' PFBs can't deal with any boundaries or structure whatsoever, and would be a total PITA for any mainstream school anyway.

I don't think so- I think there is the entire range-there are really as many types as there are HEers. No two are the same and they don't interpret anything in the same way. The vast majority are like most of the population-somewhere in the middle. It is just that those on either extreme get the most attention or make the most noise.
To me the proof of success is the adult you get at the end.

Tamer I think you're single-handedly keeping the fires alight now

I have thought that I should stop but it has been fascinating-I have learned a lot. Impressed by some, amused by some and fairly horrified by some. At least I understand the difference between unschooling and radical unschooling. I think the latter can work well with one child. Joyce Fetteroll makes it work well-I doubt it would be successful with 5 children under 7yrs. I had one child for quite a while-I could see it working, but not when I got more than one with conflicting needs and huge desire for 'fairness'.

Finally RTFT. Phew.

We're currently planning to HE (DC are 3 & 9mo). I am a University Lecturer and have PG qualifications in education as well as in my discipline. The really striking thing about this thread for me has been the casual conflation between 'education' and 'studying for a qualification'. It's something I come across professionally - so many students think me telling them the answer to a question is the very definition of me educating them, whereas I think to do so would might make them feel better, and might even get them qualified, but it would not be educating them.

Anyway, I came on to ask Crabby: why did you start and why will you stop HE your DD?

Tamer

There are so many different reasons why parents and children choose H.ed.
There are also many different ways they choose to do this.
Just as schooled children and parents are different. There isn't necessarily much of a difference between them, in a lot of cases.

I don't conflate "education" and "qualifications" at all. I think they are completely different things

What I find worrying is the frequent casual rejection of the idea of qualifications on behalf of somebody too young to know what they are, never mind whether they might need them one day! Somebody said on one off these threads that 50% of HE children get formal qualifications. That means that 50% don't. Even allowing for the fact that some HE children have additional needs that makes standard qualifications inappropriate, that is still a lot of kids who might well find doors closed to them- or at least hard to open. Qualifications are such a tiny part of education- why not jut do the bloody things then you've got them if you need them? And in general you have so much more time when you HE-you could do them without breaking into a sweat!

That is exactly what I said, morethanpotatoprints

Martorana - interesting about the 'qualifications' and 'education' bit... One of the things I do as part of my job I started when I first qualified. It seemed a natural part of what I did. However, if anyone was required to do this on a 'professional' basis, someone else had to be used... because I didn't have the letters after my name that proved I could do it. So I had to go and do the additional masters degree that proved I could do what I had been doing anyway. Because I have those extra letters, I'm now able to do what I knew I could do anyway - and have been doing so very successfully.

So, my take on that... I had a good education to start with (by that time I had a first degree and a masters on top of a good 'education'). However, it wasn't recognised until I had the qualifications to prove it... Sometimes that bit of paper is really important.

I think what I worry about in the OP's case - because that is why I'm on this thread - is that the direction she seems to be taking at the moment - radical unschooling - won't give her children the opportunity to get any qualifications. Whilst most HE can lead towards them if the children want them - radical HE seems not to - or at least delays them being received for years. In the world we live in now, should be be bringing our children up in a way that delays them starting their career? Mine (8yo) said today that he wanted to be a chemical engineer. This postdates medicine. I will not force him in any direction - all I want is to give him the potential to have the career he wants (within reason of course!).

IME, HE kids do get qualifications, but that's not the point I'm making. I was more thinking the very narrow world view in which someone's incapacity to say, not be able to teach the curriculum of GCSE chemistry somehow meant they were not fit to HE their children. Or the implication that the OP' s children would be forever disadvantaged because of their mum's apparently poor grammar. I'm planning to HE, but have no plans to play teacher when it comes to qualifications and their syllabus.

Schools are not the only places to get qualifications, and their focus on a given number of quals at a given time means they necessarily become qualification focused. This can be at the expense of education in the broader sense. Many students I encounter really struggle to move (back) into more exploratory and independent modes of study after some really ends-driven study since GCSE through A Levels. They also struggle with indeterminacy, or, not knowing 'the' answer. I can't imagine the ever increasing test regime helping much with these issues.

I have found that it is the DCs themselves who realise at about the age of 16yrs that they need the qualifications - as in a present case where the mother airily thought her DD could sail into university with a portfolio and an interview. The DD herself went along with this, but at 17 yrs decided it was more sensible to get the qualifications that were asked for and went into a school 6th form, she is now only a year behind. I feel sure that if radical unschooling lets them decide to eat junk food, not do any household chores, go to bed when they like, choose which subjects to study ( or not study any and just play computer games) then it has to allow for the choice of going to school.
It is a pity there are no statistics it would be interesting to know how many radical unschoolers go into school and how many of the parents practice what they preach and just accept it without argument.

My point was that the world at large requires qualifications sometimes - and having the education to do the job is not sufficient.

Re qualifications- I agree that it is the education part that is important , but qualifications are the proof that the education has taken place effectively.
Someone may have studied Maths to A level, for some that may be serious study every day for an hour or two, for others it may mean glancing at a page for ten minutes once a month and sleeping with the book under the pillow.

One could argue that both students have studied the subject but without the rigors of the examination process and resulting qualification how do we determine the level of understanding of the subject?

Luckily the children themselves generally realise that point, hopefully before they try and do things without. If the HE experience has worked they can think for themselves and realise that parents are not always right.

Isn't that doing the children a bit of a disservice though. As parents we have to make a lot of decisions for our children before they see the need for it.
We immunise, we brush their teeth, even though the children may see these things as pointless.
We don't wait until a child is 15 with a mouth full of rotten teeth to then work out themselves that brushing is a good idea.
Isn't preparing them to have the knowledge to pass exams in order to further themselves part of this?

It seems a little cruel to wait until a child a the age of 17 suddenly realises they need 4 A levels and have to crash them or pay for them.

You are looking at it from a conventional point of view,atthestrokeoftwelve. I agree with you, but then I think radical unschooling is damaging. Radical unschoolers won't make their children clean their teeth, they will model it, make it look fun and they will want to do it! (I would bet that a lot of radical unschoolers are anti immunisation- but that is another topic and not one I want to start)

Radical unschoolers are not making any decisions- they don't even do the healthy ones of diet and sleep.

One of the funniest I came across was a woman who gets her 4 yr old off to bed by dimming the lights and getting her pyjamas on at about 7pm! ( you wonder whether theses parents have lives and might want to go out and get a babysitter!)

Do any radically unschooled people ever get an office job or one that requires them to be part of a team? How do they cope with working in a structured environment?

Do the parents get away by themselves, leave them with grandparents, get babysitters and have an evening at the theatre, cinema, out with friends etc? Just wonder if it is child centred all the time. As a babysitter I expect a quiet evening with children tucked up in bed. As a grandparent it would be 'my house my rules'. Just curious. Do you have to keep 'control' all the time?