Regretting taking kids out of school.

[apocketfulofposy]

Posting here for traffic,sorry.

I have 5 children ranging from aged 6 to 10 weeks old.

We always planned to home educate after reading a book about it when ds1 and 2 were toddlers,then when ds1 was about 4 and a half,and i was pregnant with baby number 4,i decided to give our local primary a go,partly because it was just that time where he would of been going and partly because i was finding it hard with them all at home (no family on either side for 3 hours,husband who works away monday to friday,rural ish area,i cant even drive!).

Anyway reception was ok,he liked it,made plenty of friends,dc2 and 3 went to the pre school and liked it,except dc2 had lots of issues with hitting other children and just general destructive behaviour.

When ds1 started yr1 last year he hated it from the word go,he still liked seeing his friends but he really noticed the change between mostly play to mostly lessons,plus his teacher left after a term and the new one was very strict and spoke to the children like she was some kind of prison officer.

Ds2 started reception and seemed to enjoy it but after a few weeks i was called in a few times about his hitting and destroying things,they said he just physically wasnt ready to be at schoolt hat much so put him down to half days,which was a bit of a faff for me as i was in and out all day but it was fine.It didnt seem to help though and he was behaving worse and worse at school,especially at lunchtime,but strangely his behaviour at home was getting better.

Add to this the fact i was finding it hard carting them all around everywhere and i felt crap because i kept forgetting to reply to things and i kept hearing all this micheal gove stuff,i just decided to pull them out,id been thinking about it on and off for a while and just thought do it,and id id it almost on a bit of a whim.

The first few weeks were great and we all loved the novelty of not rushing around in mornings and the kids have been playing all day,and actually one good point is that they have been getting on so much better.

But apart from that i am starting to regret taking them out,i miss the routine,i miss being able to take the babies to their groups and talking to my "mummy friends"(cringe) i miss being able to go to the shop quickly with just the double buggy,i also just dont know what to do with them,and the house is just such a mess!

I know these are'nt huge things but its starting to feel chaotic and i can feel it going back to the way it used to be,before school,and it hink i underestimated how much it did for all of us.I just dont know what to do!

Help and advice please!xxxxx

Eu actor. Ha ha ha ha. Damn you autocorrect.

Melonribena (seriously, that doesn't exist does it?)

I do sympathise - I have enough friends and relations who go through the ofsted trauma to know how horrid it is to have a bunch of suits helicoptering in, getting a partial snap shot and then forming a judgement based on it.

But of course it is different from home ed inspection. Schools are a forum in which parents can choose to delegate their legal responsibility to educate their children, funded by the tax payer. So the schools are answerable - through the blunt instrument of ofsted - to both those parents and tax payers more widely.

Parents who do not delegate that responsibility are not answerable to tax payers (because they get no state funding), so are answerable only to the children involved and to those children's parents, which is them themselves. If there is reason to suppose that they are not demitting their. Legal responsibility, then there are laws and procedures that can be invoked, but otherwise, a home ed inspection would be exactly the same as M&S wanting to do spot inspections of random people's houses to see if they have been shoplifting this weekend. There is no reason to suppose anyone has broken the law, and we have a presumption of innocence in this country

There are undoubtedly things that HE can do (in principle) that teachers in schools can't, in terms of tailoring the education to the child. SpiritedWolf made some very important points about the pace of learning: I believe that being forced to try to learn at the wrong pace has detrimental effects on the child's learning methods that go far beyond the particular material that is being taught at that moment. I myself was forced to treat school primarily as an exercise in learning to manage boredom and this has had hugely detrimental effects on my ability to engage and self-motivate that are still ongoing and probably will last my whole life.

However for me, this point, sadly, is entirely by-the-by as I am not able or suitable to home educate my children. I can imagine HE as this theoretically amazing thing, if you were this amazing Mary Poppins tutor / nanny / parent with independent means, but I am neither financially able nor temperamentally suitable to make a decent fist of it, so I know they will do better in school than the job I would do if I attempted it, unless anything unforeseen happens and school fails them far, far worse than I anticipate at the moment.

And this is something that I think is important: there is such a thing as bad education and a good one. There is such a thing as a well-educated person, and a poorly educated one. The means of getting to either place are many and varied, but it is possible to fail your children and it is not the case that it is some sort of cardinal crime to "judge" what someone else is doing, because while the vast majority of parents do their very best and their way of doing it is good enough, some don't, some fuck up, and who is going to point this out for the benefit of the child? It has to be done, we can't all be mealy mouthedly supportive of all "choices".

and let's not forget that the heat in this debate is not all one-sided. I know why HE parents can feel a bit beleaguered and their self defence can get a bit fiery. I don't blame them. but teachers do a really hard job, harder than ever before (because remember it is only recently that all children are expected to achieve; in the past they left at 14 if it wasn't for them, and got work anyway. And puberty hits earlier now too. so in the past teachers had children to teach, and then self-selected motivated adolescents; now they get adolescents, motivated or otherwise, for a good 6, 7, 8 critical years of education in which they have to learn certain things.) So all this stuff about what teachers don't or can't do is stuff that they are surely aware of, in many cases, and trying their damnednest to do anyway. I know I couldn't be a teacher. It gets on my tits that they moan so much, tbh, like everyone else doesn't work hard, but that aside I think it is reasonable to acknowledge that they do their best for our kids in a way that probably for the majority has a better outcome than if they didn't have a school to go to. HE is anomalous - and should be - because good home educators are exceptional.

"otherwise, a home ed inspection would be exactly the same as M&S wanting to do spot inspections of random people's houses to see if they have been shoplifting this weekend."

this is nonsense. Society as a whole has a responsibility to its children and has appointed agencies to enact that responsibility. In the vast majority of cases, parents do well for their children. but that doesn't mean that the few exceptions should be ignored, because they are exceptions. Each exception is one whole human being's life.

Ommmmward, thanks for that, actually very enlightening! Inspections are horrible whoever you are!

Ommward. But you didnt answer hte point of why HEs seem to encourage everyone to HE, whether they are suitable to do so or not.

And that, imo is why HEs are so defensive.
They are defending the indefensible.

You personally care more about the law, than a child getting HE when school is probably a lot more suitable for some.

Note, some not all.

Thatiswhatimtalkingabout- excellent post!

As a teacher I can be moany, but I work very hard to give the children in my class the best education and most positive experience that I can.
I know that the majority of teachers and indeed HE'ers are the same!

"home edders should no more be expected to want to be debating the finer points of their educational philosophy and approach than school users should. "

debate with whom?

the OP started a thread about having second thoughts. that means she wanted a conversation of some sort. Looking at her situation is legitimate in this case. Anyone else who comes along to share their story has done so voluntarily.

there are obviously many very successful HE-ers on this thread but I am sorry to say I don't think the OP is one of them, and I think it is ok and in fact necessary to say so.

I doubt the OP is getting much from this thread as she has now turned defensive and "la la la I'm not listening". but I think she needs some kind of significant support with all this, with either getting HE together (which, frankly, good luck with that with a new baby) or getting her children into a suitable school and managing the admin that goes along with that and supporting the little one to manage his behaviour (which doesn't sound extreme, managing a hitty reception age child is part and parcel of life in many schools and families and part of helping him grow up, so the throwing up of hands and pulling him out of school for that sounds like an over emotional stress reaction to too much going on to me). I think the OP is using HE as an ostrich head-in-sand response to being spread far too thin at the moment and a way of ducking out of it all, and of course that isn't going to work because HE is taking on more responsibility, not less.

OP, find someone calm and neutral to talk to about all this, maybe a GP or a counsellor or your priest if you have one. Offload all the kids for one hour, go somewhere where you can sit and think and talk to a sensible, kind, adult, and see what help you can pull in for your situation. I think a good school for your school-age kids should be top of your list of things that would be good support for you. but that's me. Go and talk to someone you trust.

I don't like to judge other people's educational provision because I have no idea how those children would be suited to school or not (often not, in my experience of HEers - really, so many of our children are quirky one way or another). I have too little idea of how those children would respond to a different style of HE.

All I can do is model what we do and believe in (house full of books and activities, with enough child-led stuff that my children never look to adults for what the next activity should be (in distinct contrast to some of the schooled children we hang out with) and a willingness to answer my children's questions and read the same sodding book as many times as requested).

It stems from what Saracen said upthread. THere often is not a direct correlation between the educational provision on offer and the learning obtained - it might look a bit crap from the outside but turn into CAitlin Moran, yk?

This is a fascinating thread. There are many home edders who have intelligently and articulately expressed why they have chosen HE for their kids and I am sure they will do well.

However I am very concerned that there are parents out there who are struggling and just offering a hand to hold is not enough.There have always been people who don't see the value of school based on their own negative experiences. There have been posters on this thread who have clearly demonstrated their own poor grasp of literacy and lack of understanding of the skills and deep understanding that a good teacher brings to the study of mathematics and science. I do not believe that the OP is well equipped to home educate their children, especially when trying to meet the needs of her 5 children including a 10 week old baby. To say that she just needs to be told "this too will pass" is really poor advice.

Thanks Ommmward

One objection I have about schools is that testing and grading students narrows the curriculum, damages intrinsic motivation and heaps a huge amount of stress onto students and teachers - and people don't learn well when they are stressed - I doubt they teach well either.

These opinions about education are not unusual or extreme, they are shared by many people who send their children to schools and people who want to improve school education. They may even be evidenced based Surely it isn't unreasonable for part of a HE philosophy to be to not make their child sit routine tests unless it is part of a course or qualification they are working towards (or practise for the same)? Instead they will keep an eye on their child's education and development by continuous assessment - observing the child and their work and the child's self evaluation of skills they want to improve.

So, how would a 'one size fits all' way of assessing the quality of HE work for this parent? Would the child be made to sit a test? Three times a year? That would seem to make the attempts to avoid the testing culture of schools impossible. Are we really saying that being routinely tested is essential to prove a child is having a suitable education? And prove to who?

"So, how would a 'one size fits all' way of assessing the quality of HE work for this parent?"

but no one has said it would be "one size fits all". No one has said anything about introducing testing either.

If for some reason SS came to check out your parenting (say because of a malicious report, for the sake of argument) a good social worker following guidelines (I am not saying they all are, I am talking about the principles) won't be looking for "one size fits all", they will be looking for evidence of the important things being done somehow.

they won't mind if they share a room or even a bed if they have a clean warm place to sleep.
They won't mind if they eat omnivorously, veggie, halal or anything else that is reasonable if it is clear they are being fed well.
They won't mind if they have a strict routine or more spontaneous activities as long as it is clear that the things they do are done safely and kindly.
the house might have painting all over the walls and toys all over the floor, or it might be minimalist and neat as a new pin, but the first won't matter if it is hygienic and the second won't matter if the child is still allowed to possess some toys and books.

You can observe a HE family in the same way and be looking not for "do they know the periodic table yet?" but "are they learning and being intellectually extended and nurtured?"

Having a SW do a check because a referral/allegation or complaint has been made is not the same as one just turning up because they feel like it.

On reflection I don't think that this to will pass is bad advice.

School educated children are allowed school breaks and school holidays.

Why should HE families be any different

I think that this thread might have got a lot of people that are not normally to be seen in the HE topic interested because it was not in this topic to start with.

I think HE is a good idea for some families - and I don't have any antagonism towards those that choose it - in fact I have a lot of respect. However, this relates to the provision of a home education. I can understand that that might be child-driven. I can understand the importance of play, and I can understand that its not necessary to start too young. However, what concerns me about the information the OP first posted was that she appears to be intending to offer little or no support for her older children apart from reading books to them. I read books to my son and have done since he was little - but he still goes to school. Whilst they might learn somethings from playing or minecraft, it feels to me as though most of the HEers that have come onto the thread have been more proactive in offering guidance and helping to follow up on interests than the OP appears to be. For instance - with the 'digging up worms' - surely that's an opportunity to actually look up what worms do and perhaps try to identify what type of worm it is and how they pull leaves down and make worm casts that improve the soil and.. and .. and... Its certainly what I do with my son on a range of things, when they come up in conversation or we see things on walks. That's why he knows the difference between a beech, oak, sycamore, hazel, maple, ash, spindle, cherry, poplar silver birch, holly, yew, scots pine and willow. He can do quite a lot of these in the winter too if he thinks about it - but that makes him look properly at his surroundings and think about the differences. But I'm sure that he would have just stuck with 'tree' if I hadn't helped him to work out the differences.

I can understand that HEs are fearful of inspection.
But if an inspection is done properly, the ones that are doing it well enough shouldnt be.
And well enough ought to make allowances for the fact that all schools arent great either.

Yes, there will be some rogue inspectors, as there are in all walks of life.
But the HE community is really quite small, and talk to each other a lot. So it should show up quite quickly, which inspectors are being overly harsh.

"Also, home edders should no more be expected to want to be debating the finer points of their educational philosophy and approach than school users should"
Well of course not. But I sort of assumed that anyone on a thread like this would be interested in that sort of debate. I am happy, for example, talk about why I chose to send my children to school. Surely people not up for a discussion wouldn't have joined the thread?

On the subject of inspection, by the way, I can remember really looking forward to the inspector coming- I loved the opportunity to show what I have been doing to someone outside my usual circle. I suspect the poor woman was usually desperate to get away from me! And a friend who has just started to HE her year old had a meeting with an LEA person at a nearby cafe because her son does not like being talked about or talked to about school type subjects. So nobody came to the house and my friend found the conversation helpful and supportive. And she could have said no if she had wanted to. So it can be positive.

I love debates on education-any sort at all. I don't see why HEers don't want to debate it when they are immersed in it-they must have a huge interest, or they wouldn't be doing it.
I have loved this thread and I have learnt a lot from some HEers, I find some of them very impressive. Nothing has persuaded me that I wanted to do it-but it can't be for all-we are all different.

I agree Tamer.

Me too

Me too. I think most of us who have had issues or ask questions about ops situation or he in general actually are knowledgeable about the subject and not antiHE. Just aware it might not be perfect in all situations.

I think there's a world of difference between just being "home" (my kids do that before/afterr school/ holidays) and actual HomeEd which I think can be done brilliantly. It doesn't mean everyone who takes their kid out of school is brilliant!!

I know quite a few HE families, move in those circles a bit as it seems some of the others do.

It's dangerous to think everyone who questions what you do, or engages in debate is an anti-HE ranter or ignorant.

Hello OP.

Remember I hid your thread after the first page? Well after our pm just wanted to publicly acknowledge that there are good days and bad days.
So glad to see you having good days again.
Good luck to you.

"It's dangerous to think everyone who questions what you do, or engages in debate is an anti-HE ranter or ignorant."

That's right. That is why I have asked so many stupid questions about HE. Although it wouldn't suit our situation (and isn't necessary) I just want to understand how it works.

It seems to me that there are some very talented home educators on here, but sadly, some who just want to opt out of conventional schooling just for the sake of it.

Surely we all want is best for our children?

I get the impression that HEs are so defensive, because if they openly say that they think that some parents are not suited to it, it will shine the spotlight on the rest in some way.

But imo, the spotlight is on them, in part, because most do not openly say that HE is not suitable for some families.

Plus which, going from the HE families I know, most are quite timid, so want and try to escape scrutiny.