They've just decided Richard III won't be buried in York

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

You have to look at this document:

www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/richard-3rd-judgment-.pdf

It is cracking me up, properly. There's something so funny about seeing it all set out like that.

Just seen Tom Holland on twitter suggest Fotheringhay, the church where many York royals were buried. What do you think?

No, what people responded might be quite different from what people now respond in English. Sometimes you would have personal prayers to say in those parts of the service when, in a modern service, you are either silently listening to the priest, or responding from script.

It's quite diverse, and a lot of changes do predate Vatican II, though I agree with you those were so dramatic.

Yes, they were in the vernacular but as translations of the Latin. Also bibles were handmade in the vernacular as were printed versions by Catholics. What the church had a problem with was inaccurate translations. Many of the first printed bibles by protestants were not accurate. As I'm sure you know even Luther (a Catholic priest) deleted whole books of the bible plus removed certain passages and words that he didn't like.

If you're wondering, btw, you can tell this from looking at enough prayerbooks from the time. They differ quite a bit, and some of them have instructions like 'when you hear the priest say thus-and-so, you may recite this prayer or that one'. Others will paraphrase in the vernacular what the priest was saying in Latin, so you could mutter along with him as he spoke.

I think the biggest shock for someone from Richard's period and position would be that we signal reverence quite differently. So we are being respectful in our modern way, by the looks of pictures.

hey - no, the church had a problem with accurate translations too.

I don't think Richard III had a vernacular bible (I just don't remember noticing it mentioned), but other fifteenth-century kings did, and Wycliffe's translation is pretty reasonable. It's what a lot of the KJB is ultimately based on.

I think, having now looked into it, that Richard's Latin would have been up to reading the Bible in Latin anyway, should he have wanted to.

There's a really nice blog post about his prayerbook, btw: lambethpalacelibrary.wordpress.com/tag/richard-iii/

It's amazing to me that the book has survived, and been treated with so much care, over centuries while his body was under a carpark.

I do agree Jeanne mass would have literally been more fluid with people coming and going too. It was a different concept of what a religious gathering was. The Orthodox have a somewhat similar concept in some forms of liturgy, where the people stand and come and go - although will remain for the essential core.

In a large Catholic liturgy you will still have plenty of movement on the fringes! As people pop in and out. I remember feeling quite strange at a protestant service I attended and stood at the back. The usher was very concerned and really wanted me to sit down even though I felt more comfortable standing. I suppose I am used to overflowing services where you "hear" mass from wherever you are and everyone is too busy and engrossed to pay much attention. It's more organic I suppose. Not very neat and tidy - bit mediaeval!

Aw, that's very sweet about the Protestant usher. I know what you mean.

I've just watched the princes in the tower programme. I heard them say the mystery was solved of who killed the boys. I missed who they thought it was. We studied it at school. I thought Richard was innocent. Everyone else in the class thought he had killed them.

Who was it?!

And he should be buried in York.

Yes he was very kind but I think he was a bit disturbed by my non-committed hovering!

It's interesting how different liturgy/services create different forms of cultural behavior in the people.

Revd Julia Hargreaves led crowds in a service of remembrance and respect.

Gosh, he certainly would have been struck by that one!

YY, exactly! This is what I wonder about this whole thing, how very differently people from other cultures/time periods would have related to it all.

I've had similar-but-different experiences in both Catholic and Orthodox Churches (I'm C of E so that's what I'm used to) - I was happy to stand/kneel/copy other people, but I noticed that despite the fluidity of the service, I was obviously not keeping quite in time with everyone else and some people could really tell!

Someone has just commented that there are two 'knights' in pseudo-medieval armour with the coffin procession! Does anyone know why (or who they got to do that?!). It seems a funny mix of old and new.

• sorry, should be small c on churches, not that it matters.

santana - crikey, yes!

Yes it's interesting how liturgy will become second nature for people. It's interesting as is one of few rituals left when large numbers are moving in unison. Only thing I can think of remotely similar is when I used to follow QPR in the days before all stadium seating and we would surge around in the stands behind the goal. Maybe not quite as holy but still had a following of devout faithful through thick and thin, staunchly impervious to so-called reason.

Do you think Richard spent much time in crowds of the great unwashed in whatever context?

@. I heard them say the mystery was solved of who killed the boys. I missed who they thought it was. "

Starkey thinks it's Richard, AFAIK he always has thought that but his new evidence was that H7 and E of York attended Tyrell's trial ( for something else) at which tyrell confessed (said confession has long been on record)

I wasn't any more convinced by this. It's unlikely it will ever be definitively solved.

"And he should be buried in York."

Why do you think so?

His only connection with Leicester is that he died near there.

Ch4 are doing a pretty poor job of the coverage. Too much highbrow pontificating and speculation. Needs a Horrible Histories sketch to lighten the mood a bit.

Yes most people aren't buried in the place they died. If I dropped down dead on holiday in Spain I wouldn't want to be buried there.

Agree, but why York in particular?

I'm sorry if this has already been discussed but I thought the channel 4 documentary on the princes in the tower was very poor work. For example there was only a brief discussion of Margaret Neville or Henry Tudor's motives for getting rid of the boys. Also the discussion about the discovery of Edward IV's previous marriage was laughable. The American guy who said a Bishop wouldn't lie (or words to that effect) about witnessing Edward exchanging vows was a complete lightweight. Of course this previous marriage was a fabrication and declaring the children illegitimate did not settle the matter or leave Richard secure. I couldn't believe they brought up the trial of this Tyrell character in the last five minutes. It is of great interest that Henry and Elizabeth attended the trial. Now I'll have to go and read up on it.

funny, he had been there a few times before, and I could be wrong but I think he owned lands in Leicestershire?

(NB, I don't think this is a strong argument for him being buried there - just thought it was worth knowing.)

The C4 documentary was utter shite.

A quick google didn't give me more on the Starkey statement at the end - if you find anything, would love a link.