Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

Lower offers based on ethnicity

104 replies

Bufftailed · 27/10/2026 11:28

Was surprised to see Newcastle offer 3 grades lower for certain ethnic groups (state school, but no other socio economic criteria). Is anyone aware of any other unis doing this?

OP posts:
Boreded · 27/10/2026 17:42

PercyGherkin · 27/10/2026 12:41

The real issue we should have with unis and their acceptance policies is when they are turning down British students to meet overseas quotas because they can charge them 30k a year instead of £10k a year

The even real-er issue is that those international student fees are necessary, because home student fees aren't enough to fund courses. Without international students, with a falling domestic birth rate, more universities will go bust with knock on effects for local economies as well as research and UK soft power. Education is a massive export for the UK.

Then we need to work out as a country how to still provide the funding to universities to match what can be achieved with overseas students, to ensure that we better balance the improvement of our own talent, retention of skills, and still bringing in talent from abroad.

It shouldn’t come down to money when we talk about whether or not we allow our young people to access the top universities. We are shooting ourselves in the foot if universities can make 3x the money on an overseas student vs a home student

SabrinaThwaite · 27/10/2026 17:42

Too late to edit, but the above statement in italics is from the FAQs, so doesn’t appear to tied to medicine / dentistry courses.

AelinAG · 27/10/2026 17:48

Winter2020 · 27/10/2026 17:18

I was fascinated when looking at the scholarships for a major London uni's postgraduate business schemes to see many of them were exclusively for different ethnic groups (non white) only to apply - despite photographs of their co-horts being 70% non white. So whites massively under-represented but not allowed to apply for many of the scholarships. How does that work?

I think if you are going to have criteria/scholarships for certain ethnicities you should at least have a burden of proof that the group is actually under-represented.

Depends on where the funding is coming from, if it’s from a donor or charity then the uni won’t always have a say.

GeneralPeter · 27/10/2026 17:55

Lexibletheflexible · 27/10/2026 17:28

"But you can't play that card forever because the smart grandchildren of those smart poor kids are now smart rich kids."

I don't think that is necessarily true. It depends on how you measure success. Not everyone who goes onto get a degree for example also goes on to a well paying job, even if they have a long career with many achievements in their field.

I can give you a prime example. One of my teachers came from an East London estate, did well, went to Oxbridge, studied I think Maths and Theology and then came back and taught Humanities at my secondary school. He lived nearby. He used to rent with mates when he taught us and said he couldn't afford his own place. When I was in my 20s, I'd see him taking his daughter to a local state school and then secondary school. Obviously he had partnered up, who knows if they've bought or still rent?

My point is that not every good, stable career that requires an education or significant training compensates you enough to completely leave all social barriers behind. That might be mostly choice or just that not everyone can be in the top jobs in the private sectors.

His daughter is still growing up in inner city East London in the same type of state school he was in. Just 30/40 years later. The only difference is that maybe unlike her GPs, her dad went to Oxbridge and got a degree. That's why she will probably do very well academically despite her school and its area.

Show quote history

It's not always true, for sure, but on the averages over many generations I think you get a sort of stratification. Your teacher's children probably aren't going to be struggling educationally (even though they may not be rich). But for a portion of the population, they have over many generations not acquired wealth nor retained the genetic inheritance that is likely to help them or their children do that. It all sounds a bit brutal written out like that, but I think it's an inescapable conclusion from just observing how heritability and social mobility works.

That leaves the question of what to do about it. At least pre-AI I'd have said we need to work hard to build strong high-skill-but-not-academic sectors that provide economic routes for non-academic children. (That still doesn't solve the stubborn problem that you'll still have a group who aren't either intelligent or diligent or practical etc etc. Another brutal but inescapable conclusion I think).

What AI will do is anyone's guess. I think the premium on intelligence might be about to reduce a lot, to be replaced by... not sure... access to capital? An entrepreneurial spirit? Cant-be-automated things like charisma? Really not sure. But I expect another big and disruptive reshuffling of some sort. Policy-wise, I think the UK can only try to have as much of the AI supply chain as possible (firms, energy, data centres, etc.). My guess is we get lots of benefits (as well as lots of risks), but that the financial return to AI goes to capital and not labour. For countries that don't have a claim on that, I don't know what they do. For those that do, there is at least a hope of some sort of social provision or redisribution based on taxing AI-related firms.

Lexibletheflexible · 27/10/2026 17:58

GeneralPeter · 27/10/2026 17:55

It's not always true, for sure, but on the averages over many generations I think you get a sort of stratification. Your teacher's children probably aren't going to be struggling educationally (even though they may not be rich). But for a portion of the population, they have over many generations not acquired wealth nor retained the genetic inheritance that is likely to help them or their children do that. It all sounds a bit brutal written out like that, but I think it's an inescapable conclusion from just observing how heritability and social mobility works.

That leaves the question of what to do about it. At least pre-AI I'd have said we need to work hard to build strong high-skill-but-not-academic sectors that provide economic routes for non-academic children. (That still doesn't solve the stubborn problem that you'll still have a group who aren't either intelligent or diligent or practical etc etc. Another brutal but inescapable conclusion I think).

What AI will do is anyone's guess. I think the premium on intelligence might be about to reduce a lot, to be replaced by... not sure... access to capital? An entrepreneurial spirit? Cant-be-automated things like charisma? Really not sure. But I expect another big and disruptive reshuffling of some sort. Policy-wise, I think the UK can only try to have as much of the AI supply chain as possible (firms, energy, data centres, etc.). My guess is we get lots of benefits (as well as lots of risks), but that the financial return to AI goes to capital and not labour. For countries that don't have a claim on that, I don't know what they do. For those that do, there is at least a hope of some sort of social provision or redisribution based on taxing AI-related firms.

Edited
Show quote history

"But for a portion of the population, they have over many generations not acquired wealth nor retained the genetic inheritance that is likely to help them or their children do that. It all sounds a bit brutal written out like that, but I think it's an inescapable conclusion from just observing how heritability and social mobility works."

Right but this particular scheme also attempts to address that.

GeneralPeter · 27/10/2026 18:18

Lexibletheflexible · 27/10/2026 17:58

"But for a portion of the population, they have over many generations not acquired wealth nor retained the genetic inheritance that is likely to help them or their children do that. It all sounds a bit brutal written out like that, but I think it's an inescapable conclusion from just observing how heritability and social mobility works."

Right but this particular scheme also attempts to address that.

Show quote history

I think it's good that schemes like this exist (though they need to be done carefully and I question the addition of the ethnicity limb). I just think they face diminishing returns, and are often based on an inaccurate belief that talent is evenly distributed and if that's not showing up in the admission stats it must be because the right ladders aren't in place or because of discrimination. Taken too far, that belief can end up with discrimination in the other direction that is equally unfair on an individual level. I think the UK is not too egregious in that regard, but looking at US elite uni admissions for example I am appalled at the (to my British eyes) outrageous discrimination mostly against Asian Americans, which also seems to be based on a similar flawed premises.

Winter2020 · 27/10/2026 18:35

AelinAG · 27/10/2026 17:48

Depends on where the funding is coming from, if it’s from a donor or charity then the uni won’t always have a say.

Show quote history

But discrimination by ethnicity is illegal?

I believe it is allowed in some circumstances for under-represented groups. If the group isn't under-represented then surely this is plain old illegal racial discrimination?

If funding offered to a uni for a scholarship requires them to act illegally then they should of course turn down the funding.

LetMeGoogleThat · 27/10/2026 18:47

I'll answer the actual question you asked OP, and yes! Other uni's do. Manchester, Cardiff and Southampton.

Not sure why this thread went the way it did, seems there was an assumption you were asking for nefarious reasons 😂

puttingoffprocrastinating · 27/10/2026 18:51

Laurmolonlabe · 27/10/2026 16:48

I never said they do, i had not even heard of the term, I just related my own experience and that of several friends.
The colleges do interviews , what criteria they use depends on the people interviewing, the college, and the candidates they have already seen- the set out policy won't cover any of that variation, it will to a greater extent be up to the individuals involved.

Show quote history

Sorry, when you said "Oxford and Cambridge have done it for 35 years" I assumed that was in response to the thread title.

Original poster
Bufftailed · 27/10/2026 19:22

LetMeGoogleThat · 27/10/2026 18:47

I'll answer the actual question you asked OP, and yes! Other uni's do. Manchester, Cardiff and Southampton.

Not sure why this thread went the way it did, seems there was an assumption you were asking for nefarious reasons 😂

Thank you! First person to actually answer.

Literally the opposite 🤣🤣 Will look at those (obviously to send onto a far right political group rather than use for my own family 🤦🏻‍♀️)

OP posts:
NiaAndFar · 27/10/2026 19:33

I would be surprised if this was legal, it is blatant race discrimination. I hope someone challenges it in court!

Emyj15 · 27/10/2026 19:54

I suspect most courses at Newcastle are recruiting rather than selecting.

These sort of schemes just allow some universities to unofficially lower the tariff while pretending they are high tariff for the majority.

I also suspect these contextual offers will be the clearing grade for most courses.

Newcastle have low numbers of ethnic minorities so selling the idea of contextual offers may increase numbers. Some may think they are getting offers at higher tariff universities than they would normally expect.

Lexibletheflexible · 27/10/2026 20:17

GeneralPeter · 27/10/2026 18:18

I think it's good that schemes like this exist (though they need to be done carefully and I question the addition of the ethnicity limb). I just think they face diminishing returns, and are often based on an inaccurate belief that talent is evenly distributed and if that's not showing up in the admission stats it must be because the right ladders aren't in place or because of discrimination. Taken too far, that belief can end up with discrimination in the other direction that is equally unfair on an individual level. I think the UK is not too egregious in that regard, but looking at US elite uni admissions for example I am appalled at the (to my British eyes) outrageous discrimination mostly against Asian Americans, which also seems to be based on a similar flawed premises.

Edited
Show quote history

Most of the issues around this that occur in the US happen because they fail to separate demographics effectively.

littlesue · 28/10/2026 09:08

I think Newcastle just need bums in seats and this is another way to attract students. I know a student who was offered AAA for architecture but got in with BBB. They need to fill those places. It doesn't have the prestige of other unis (Oxbridge/Imperial) but is a good uni.

viques · 28/10/2026 09:19

Bufftailed · 27/10/2026 11:42

I am talking about purely ethnicity. I know the usual FSM, care experienced etc etc

Show quote history

Read the criteria. Underrepresented ethnicity is only one of the criteria. you only need to tick ONE of the criteria boxes, which are pretty wide ranging.

Unfortunately being a bit of a stirrer isn’t one of the criteria, nor is having a reading comprehension age in the low teens.

puttingoffprocrastinating · 28/10/2026 09:23

viques · 28/10/2026 09:19

Read the criteria. Underrepresented ethnicity is only one of the criteria. you only need to tick ONE of the criteria boxes, which are pretty wide ranging.

Unfortunately being a bit of a stirrer isn’t one of the criteria, nor is having a reading comprehension age in the low teens.

Show quote history

I think you're the one who's misunderstanding!

@Bufftailed is asking if there are any other unis with underrepresented ethnicity on its own as a contextual factor. I get the impression her DC would tick that box.

Original poster
Bufftailed · 28/10/2026 11:39

puttingoffprocrastinating · 28/10/2026 09:23

I think you're the one who's misunderstanding!

@Bufftailed is asking if there are any other unis with underrepresented ethnicity on its own as a contextual factor. I get the impression her DC would tick that box.

Show quote history

Thank you. Given up on this thread.

OP posts:
SnapAndTap · 28/10/2026 19:28

@Bufftailed not through the partners scheme, but we've just recieved our guaranteed offer, upto 2 grades lower, Newcastle offer. It's 2 grades below typical.

Can't help with the original question tho. Sorry.

SabrinaThwaite · 28/10/2026 22:22

SnapAndTap · 28/10/2026 19:28

@Bufftailed not through the partners scheme, but we've just recieved our guaranteed offer, upto 2 grades lower, Newcastle offer. It's 2 grades below typical.

Can't help with the original question tho. Sorry.

Is that conditional on firming Newcastle?

Original poster
Bufftailed · 29/10/2026 08:15

SabrinaThwaite · 28/10/2026 22:22

Is that conditional on firming Newcastle?

Show quote history

What is the guaranteed offer @SnapAndTap ? To get partners you have to firm and go to summer school.

OP posts:
SnapAndTap · 29/10/2026 09:33

Its based on proximity to Newcastle & named schools in the region. We get both a guarenteed offer for our proximity, and a potentially refuced offer for our school (if we lived in the same house and went private, we'd get a guaranteed offer, no potential for grade reduction).

No summer school, not required to be firm offer. Not partners.
@Bufftailed
@SabrinaThwaite

SabrinaThwaite · 29/10/2026 09:44

That’s the regional contextual offer then?

Crispynoodle · 29/10/2026 10:04

I work in FE our local uni has 42% of the student body as foreign students. In real life this means that the uni are prioritising the cash they get from foreign students over the local students who are finding it increasingly difficult to get a place where they could live at home to save money

labtest57 · 29/10/2026 17:37

SnapAndTap · 27/10/2026 11:59

Newcastle are doing a massive amount about widening participation - and yes, certain under representation ethnic groups can get an offer upto 3 grades lower.

Likewise, we get a guarenteed offer, and upto 2 grades lower - purely for living within about 60 mins drive of Newcastle - and there are some nice areas in that radius.

My understanding is all they are trying to do is make the demographics of the uni reflect the demographics of the country.

Really? My daughter didnt, and we live 20 minutes away. Not being goady, just genuinely surprised