Black Mark on UCAS File Before Clearing?

[CowTown]

Someone mentioned to me that DC shouldn’t put courses they are at risk of not getting an offer for. Their reasoning is that if DC is rejected at this stage, they will have a black mark from that particular uni department on their UCAS file, and will have problems getting through clearing there. Their advice is that if DC is under the required grades, they shouldn’t put the course on their application, because if the course goes into clearing with lower grades (which it historically does), they’ll be able to get in through clearing on results day if they don’t have this black mark on their record. That if they were initially rejected, the uni will say no at the clearing stage.

Is there any truth to this?

I agree with you. It is wrong that many if these jobs are now ‘graduate jobs’: wrong for the 18 year olds and wrong for the graduates.

This rubbish about state kids being disadvantaged is rubbish. There are plenty of clued up teachers and parents in all sorts of schools from state grammars to comps. Of course they can do the digging for info but, in general, why not take the published tarrif at face value. Apply to a couple of unis requiring a stretch. If teachers predict wrongly, dc might still get in. They might not and then the less aspirational choices come into play. Trying to guess what each uni will do is just way too difficult for the majority. With more dc looking to stay at home, they won’t even be making 5 choices!

How would post-qualification applications possibly work in a limited time period and without the support of the school?

Once the kids have got the results, they fill out their UCAS application? But that is all done via the school with teachers supporting personal statement writing, application choice and writing teacher references. When they have their results they are no longer in school so how would that work?

Many countries rely almost entirely on national exams. It is more objective.

Pupils would need counselling to make good choices; that’s where the effort would go.

How would that work for unis who currently interview and use STEP, TMUA etc to distinguish between candidates with equally good grades?

That’s one of the reasons it hasn’t been implemented (there’s been a couple of consultations over the last 10-15 years, with lots of problems raised, including this).

Although nothing to stop kids getting guidance as they do now. And usually there’d be no need for PS.

If anyone wants some light reading…..https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/post-qualification-admissions-in-higher-education-proposed-changes

The results of these exams would also be known before either the applications or the offers. This wouldn’t be a problem.

So you think those students would sit STEP, TMUA etc in case they end up applying to universities which require them? There’s a wide range of entrance exams!

TMUA could be substantially delayed, to sync with the new, delayed application cycle. STEP is already sat at the same time as A levels. Applicants thinking about programmes requiring these exams tend to be strong students who know about the extra requirements well ahead of time. (Some prepare more diligently than others)

Thanks for the link, @titchy . I had forgot about this.

It is worth noting that in the survey reported, students themselves are the biggest supporters of a move to post qualification applications, with a majority in favour. Most of the objections from other stakeholders are around implementation.

Again I would point to the fact that the other 31 countries who replied to the Sutton Trust survey manage either a post qualification offer (mostly) or a post qualification application process. (This includes virtually every country in Western Europe.)

The concerns for social equity cited by stakeholders would carry more weight with me if we were doing a better job with the current system. I think most of the concerns come down to comfort with the status quo.

Can I ask a question of the experts on this thread?

DC is looking at AAA RG courses, with PGs of AAB. They have the option to request that the B is moved up to an A, but think that would be cheating. For context, current essay marks at this stage are 2-3% off an A so there is potential for improvement.

This thread is making me think that I should push asking for the upgraded PG - is that risky or just playing the game?

@StillSpartacus I would ask for the AAA upgrade. Dc can then apply to AAA courses. I’d maybe do 2 or 3. Then one AAB and the lowest say, ABB. Dc should be prepared to go to any of them. Check grades accepted in previous years for AAA courses and whether they went into clearing. If they took pretty much what they advertise in terms of grades, it might be worth a go, but the other 2 unis would need similar research. If they go into clearing, there’s a better chance, ditto if they accept lower grades. If you don’t try, you will never know.

What do you mean when you say ‘they have the option’, @StillSpartacus ? How accurate are the school’s internal assessments and PGs?

I recommend that every applicant have an Insurance choice two grades off their PGs, unless they can project that come August they will genuinely prefer the options of Clearing or a gap year (it is easy to say now that you will, but things may well look different then). I think DD should use AAB as the baseline here, so her Insurance would be BBB.

Having said that, if by ‘the option’ you mean that DD has the opportunity to make a realistic plan with her teacher for achieving the third A, then why not? The questions are (a) whether she is prepared to follow through, and (b) whether achieved grades of recent cohorts at her choices of degree programmes show any flex when it comes to acceptances. It will do her no good to concentrate her applications on programmes that will not ultimately admit her.

The main thing wrong with the type of conversation you propose is that there is a tendency to see the offer as the end goal. Also I dislike strongly anything that could be construed as pressurising teachers. But if DD is determined and aware, I think a conversation centred on her own efforts ys fine.

I hope this helps.

@poetryandwineThe % the DD is off the A isn’t that much though. Not sure the teacher would be under pressure but a “what do you think?” question is reasonable. Again though, if the AAA courses always fill, it’s not worth concentrating on them.

Thank you @MeetMeOnTheCornerGoodness, it’s a game, isn’t it?

I thought I said the exploratory convo was worthwhile? I am off sick today so I might not be firing on all cylinders. If so I apologise, @StillSpartacus

However I know from experience that both over optimistic PGs and lack
of follow through in this age group are pretty typical. A conditional offer does not constitute admission!

What do you mean when you say ‘they have the option’, @StillSpartacus ? How accurate are the school’s internal assessments and PGs?
The head of sixth form has said to speak to him and he can be persuaded.
^^
I recommend that every applicant have an Insurance choice two grades off their PGs, unless they can project that come August they will genuinely prefer the options of Clearing or a gap year (it is easy to say now that you will, but things may well look different then). I think DD should use AAB as the baseline here, so her Insurance would be BBB.
Thanks - that’s helpful. Currently looking at insurance of ABB so may need to rethink that.
^^
Having said that, if by ‘the option’ you mean that DD has the opportunity to make a realistic plan with her teacher for achieving the third A, then why not? The questions are (a) whether she is prepared to follow through, and (b) whether achieved grades of recent cohorts at her choices of degree programmes show any flex when it comes to acceptances. It will do her no good to concentrate her applications on programmes that will not ultimately admit her.
The main thing wrong with the type of conversation you propose is that there is a tendency to see the offer as the end goal. Also I dislike strongly anything that could be construed as pressurising teachers. But if DD is determined and aware, I think a conversation centred on her own efforts ys fine.
I hope this helps.
I get that,and I think DC would prefer to be straightforward about it, on the other hand, it would be a shame to miss out, because others have gamed the system better.
Thanks for your help.,

@poetryandwine Apologies - I did rather focus on not stressing the teacher out. Yes, a sensible conversation is worthwhile. Hope you feel better soon.

@StillSpartacus There are so many courses not filling up now, I’m not really sure dc would be disadvantaged but don’t put down 3 aspirational that fill up or nearly everyone has AAA. Spread the choices out and don’t be wildly optimistic. As long as dc gets at least 2 offers, he’s got a reasonable chance of hitting at least one come results day.

Every year students ask for their predicted grade to be increased for UCAS, this isn't an unusual request! TBH with a kid who was only a couple of % off an A, we'd be routinely predicting them an A for UCAS anyway because of the whole ridiculous situation where they may still get a place from that offer even if they don't meet their predicted grade.

For avoidance of doubt, I think the plan is fine! FWIW the convo as you report it raises the possibility that the head of sixth form is more focused on the offer than on DD’s admission to an AAA degree programme.

If I sound pessimistic it is because I know how (very) many do not make their offers. I always like to see students in the strongest programmes where they can thrive. DD should not be gamed out of this opportunity by others! But perhaps she should realise that 80% of PGs are wrong, and outside of schools in deprived areas the large majority are too optimistic. If she is serious about these degree programmes she will need to take responsibility for getting there.

Very best wishes to her.

It’s fine, @MeetMeOnTheCorner , and thank you.

This is really not true

@poetryandwine It’s interesting you talk about taking responsibility for getting on a university course. I’m a firm believer in dc taking responsibility for the university and career by doing research. On another thread I’m having a really hard time for saying this. It’s strange how people react when they think a selection process is rigged against them. I just don’t understand why everything is up to someone else to put right. Rant over.

On the one hand it's up to DC to take responsibility for applying for UCAS and doing research, on the other hand there are all these stupid 'deep knowledge' things like applying for courses with higher entry grades than you are predicted because they might take you anyway, or you can ask your teacher to bump up your predicted grade because schools know once your foot is in the door you can get in anyway even if you don't get the grades. And other kids are getting loads of help with their personal statement and being taken to open days so the ones who aren't are disadvantaged.

It's a shit process and kids (and they are kids) need support with it.