EPQ vs Core Maths

[Barbeasty]

DD is going to be doing PE, Geography and Politics A-levels and needs to decide between EPQ and Core Maths to do alongside them.

She would rather do the EPQ, school have strongly suggested Core Maths.

She got a high 5 in GCSE maths. More than capable of doing more but, amongst other things, being allowed to spend year 10 in a low set (diagnosed processing issues meant she needed to work slower than the higher sets but should have been aiming for a 7) left her with a lack of confidence and gaps in knowledge.

When she enrolled for sixth form yesterday and confirmed her subject choices they said that core maths would make up for the GCSE maths grade when she applies to university.

Is that likely to be true or are they going to be of equal value and she should do whichever she is likely to get a higher grade in?

Most unis are fine with a grade of 5 in GCSE maths anyway. The main exceptions are

• unis or courses that look for strong GCSEs overall (Oxford, Cambs and medicine for example)
• UCL which wants 6 in maths and English for all courses
• Some unis if the course applied for is maths heavy and there is no A level maths (so say economics without A level maths) might ask for a higher grade, often a 7

Do any of these apply? If not then I think "making up for the GCSE grade 5" is a red herring and she should take the course that interests her most. Core maths and EPQ are both excellent and worth doing but you do need to be engaged.

They are not mutually exclusive, but DS(17) did Core Maths and point blank refused to consider an EPQ since he’d already done “extra”. He is really pleased that he’ll be doing his UCAS application next term with 20 points already in the bag.

His college required him to do Core Maths graphical methods to support his Biology & Chemistry A levels. He got a 7 at GCSE and has really enjoyed Core Maths. He didn’t really enjoy Maths GCSE, but it was a necessary evil as the college he’d set his heart on wanted a 6.

Is there much maths /stats content in Grography or PE? At DS’s college the social scientists & geographers are expected to do the Core Maths stats course to help them with the data analysis parts of their subjects. It means they can focus on the curriculum content better in lessons, rather than developing the maths skills to interpret what they are looking at.

Also consider summer coursework - DS has had a big History essay to write over the summer. If he’d been doing an EPAq as well, he wouldn’t have had much of a break.

my ds was in lower sets in yr10 ( the bottom set in yr 7 in fact due to covid )- switched to higher papers and sets in yr11 - came out with a comfortable 6 - Not the most organised in year 12 in his study skills - its taken him time to find his feet so I've discouraged him to do an EPQ - too much . He does core maths a 3 timetabled lessons over a fortnight He finds it a useful complement to his other a-levels - he's doing business, economics and weirdly physics without maths a-level - Its all real world stuff , statistics etc as far as I can see - actual useful maths for a career & life ! He's aiming for post 92 courses . His target is B and he got D in the summer mocks which was just a practice class paper really . There's very few of them in the class so its almost like a tutor . t will give him some more UCAS points and its actually educating & upskilling him in his numeracy skills . He wants now to do something finance related .

Core maths would be good if she doesn’t know what she wants to do after A levels. It would help to keep some options open.

EPQ would be better if she does know what she wants to do after A levels and wants to study a topic more in depth that relates to that.

To add to what a PP said about a 6 in maths for unis….most of the RG unis require a 6 in Maths to study in their business departments…the exceptions are Leeds, Liverpool, Birmingham, Exeter, York, and Southampton. Ask me how I know.

Sorry to derail.

yes it is certainly worth looking at specific courses at unis if relevant. Warwick is one that I am aware of as having "higher numeracy requirement" for some of its courses. Some will accept core maths and others don't mention it (so may or may not accept it I guess).

I am only aware of UCL that asks for a 6 across the board tho (so for Eng lit or history, not just numeracy heavy subjects).

If a uni requires a 6 in maths GCSE, then that is their requirement. Core maths won't 'compensate' for that. She just won't be able to apply for those universities. But there will be plenty of others which she can apply for. This is something to look out for when applications come around.

Core maths is useful if your DD wants to pursue geography later (particularly physical geography), as there can be a heavy scientific/statistical element to geography. If she wants to pursue politics, or more human geography, then the research and writing skills format he EPQ probably will be more useful.

If is best to pick what she will engage with most. Both are excellent courses and very valuable but both need hard work and engagement. An EPQ particularly requires self motivation.

Sorry for the typos!

If a uni requires a 6 in maths GCSE, then that is their requirement. Core maths won't 'compensate' for that. She just won't be able to apply for those universities.

@CaptainSwan1 for some it may do though. Here is Cardiff for business management:
GCSE Maths grade B/6 or equivalent qualification (subject and grade). If you are taking A-level Maths (or equivalent), GCSE Maths is not required. Core Maths may also be accepted in place of GCSE Maths.

https://amsp.org.uk/universities/university-admissions/alternatives-admissions/

List of Universities with alternative offers with core maths. Some have a similar offer with EPQ too.

e.g.The University of Sheffield, for courses with a GCSE Maths requirement, will give a contextual offer equivalent to one A Level grade below the standard entry requirements for the course, subject to students achieving a specific grade in Core Maths.
For example: AAB would be reduced to ABB for students who attain a grade B or above in Core Maths across a number of undergraduate degree courses including Geography, Biology, Politics, Architecture and Economics.

Very useful link @ConBatulations. It is also worth flagging that Geography A level, subject to exam board, includes a compulsory NEA element (typically 20% of total marks) which acts as a kind of mini-EPQ, allowing students to experience and demonstrate independent research without the much more onerous commitment of a full EPQ. My children enjoyed and benefitted from undertaking their Geog NEAs.

Core Maths would support Geography, on the human as well as the physical side, and perhaps build up confidence in this aspect in a relatively unpressured way. As others say, Core Maths steers clear of theoretical algebra and focuses on real life statistics.

My children's school strongly encouraged take up of Core Maths and my children did not come across anyone who regretted doing it, whereas reported feedback of undertaking EPQs was decidedly more patchy.

Being cynical the school may push Core maths over EPQ as it attracts extra funding. They are however correct to say that it could override a grade requirement for GCSE e.g. both Bristol and UCL accept a B for degrees which require a 6+ at GCSE. It would complement both Geography and PE and contains a lot of everyday maths understanding which is useful in life. It would probably boost her confidence in maths if that has been knocked by a lower than hoped for grade.

Having said all that if there is an EPQ that she is passionate about then do it. Look at how the marks are allocated in EPQ before making a final decision.

Yes that's a good link @ConBatulations and it looks as tho more unis than I thought ask for a higher grade in maths GCSE, at least for some subjects. We don't know if @Barbeasty's DD will be looking at any of those subjects or those unis, but it's certainly worth considering in detail now in case it's relevant.

If her plan is a politics degree then it won't be; but if she is looking at economics (for example) or business as noted, then it may be of interest,

My teen hated maths and almost laughed in the face of their high school maths teacher when he suggested it at parents' evening. They got an 8 in GCSE maths and a 6 in GCSE further maths.

They took sociology A-level and were recommended to take core maths by college. I think psychology students were too.

As recommended, my teen took core maths in their first year and actually enjoyed it. They did the statistical version and found it very useful for life skills. Not just statistics but things like how to do a tax return. They also said there wasn't really any need to revise to do well (got an A) so it didn't impact on their other a-levels, other than the class time. They have recommended it to several friends and think the curriculum should be used for GCSE.

They received offers from Durham, Manchester, Newcastle, Leeds and Liverpool. I'm not sure if that's why but it was on their application form and they mentioned it in the personal statement too.

In the final year EPQ was available. They dropped this as it was just too much work with A-level revision in the final year too.

Thanks all.

I think she’d like to do either sport science or physiotherapy, so some courses would be out because she isn’t doing biology and others ask for at least a 6 in maths. But there are plenty of options that would be ok with her a-level choices and GCSE grades.

Core maths is apparently more useful maths for everyday life. A 5 in gcse maths is low - foundation level. Given she is interested in sports science I can see why school thinks her uni application would be strengthen with core maths. Or alternatively do neither and resist gcse maths and aim for a 6.

EPQ involves a lot of time in research and essay (or artefact. It is also done independently. Core Maths is taught.
My feeling is if there’s something they are passionate about and want to explore further then an EPQ is of great value in and of itself, independent of how the universities consider it. None of the unis my DD applied to were that interested in an EPQ, but she wanted to do the particular artefact - a magazine.
But if not Core Math might be the wiser choice.

My daughter got a B in her EPQ and several unis dropped her offer by a grade to recognise this. So instead of for example BBB, offered BBC. She didn't enjoy writing it, but for this reason it was useful!

You're right - there is more nuance and everything depends on individual universities and their stated requirements. What I meant was if there is no mention of core maths in the entry requirements as an alternative to GCSE maths then it's not an alternative.