Gap year to take Further Maths for Economics university applications?

[Itsmedpr]

Hi
My DS is currently sitting his A-levels and has recently decided he’d like to study Economics at university. His subjects are Maths, Economics, and Computer Science, with predicted grades of 3 A*s.
As he doesn’t take Further Maths, he didn’t apply to LSE this cycle, as we understood the chances there can be quite limited without it. He’s now considering taking a gap year to study Further Maths and prepare more thoroughly for the TMUA, with the aim of improving his chances at universities such as LSE, Imperial, UCL, Warwick, etc. (His recent TMUA score was unexpectedly low).
Would this generally be considered a sensible route. Any advice or experiences would be really appreciated. Thanks

Hi, OP -

I am in STEM and you need some opinions from people with experience of Economics admissions.

With three A stars already predicted, I think this sounds worth considering. My one note of caution concerns the question of whether any of these degree programmes will look askance at taking FM separately - whether they prefer all exams to be taken in one sitting.

It also depends what options DS has now, and what his goals are. I am always a bit cynical about the idea that only certain feeder schools will open doors in IB, because we aren’t one of them and we send students into quant jobs there every year. Also, the majority of those everywhere who desire a career in IB end up in other sectors.

If the entry requirements discussion on the website don’t answer the question about how to take A levels, it’s perfectly appropriate for DS to contact the admissions teams to ask. He should be sure to mention those PGs!

Does he have offers for Economics at the moment?

If he has an offer he is happy with already I would vere towards no gap year unless he wants one anyway and has a plan to get work experience / travel. Its a bit of a gamble whether he would get better offers or not. LSE on their site say they prefer one sitting and in DDs year it was a 9% offer rate with FM, 5% without so not high. He should have good offers with 3 A stars already I would have thought and computing has a fair amount of maths in so think he'll be OK.

My DD had 3 A stars predicted and applied for 4 Economics courses and 3 out of 4 offered with no FM. She went with Oxford and doesn't have problems with not having FM but is a joint course. Bristol and Bath both also offered for Economics which are both good options for jobs.

If he's not happy with his offers and could get a job or has a good plan for a gap year as well as FM then it could be a good idea but it is a gamble as to whether it will result in better offers. Those A levels are excellent for an Economics degree already.

Does Oxford offer Economics undergrad?

With predicted 3 A*s, I’d make the gap-year decision evidence-led rather than LSE-led. Ask each target admissions team whether Further Maths taken in a gap year is viewed the same as taking it alongside A levels, and whether a stronger TMUA would materially change his competitiveness. Then compare that upside with the risk of giving up any offer he already likes.

Thanks everyone. At the moment, he only has an offer from Bristol, which was actually his insurance choice. He applied to Oxford, Warwick, St Andrews, and UCL.
My main worry is whether taking a gap year would really improve his chances next year, and how best to justify the gap year in a future application.
We’re also trying to figure out the practical side of things particularly where he could study Further Maths intensively over one year and sit the A-level, ideally somewhere around Hampshire or online.
On top of that, we’d need to organise work experience and other activities again to help strengthen his profile for reapplying…
We will contact the admissions team in the target universities about gap year and see what they say. Thanks x

It offers Econ and management

I will pm you

I agree with this and I think the decision will be difficult. Every year until niw, this Board has contained several messages from frantic MumsNetters whose DC were predicted four A stars and got no Economics offers whatsoever. Presumably one of those was FM.

Bristol has much to recommend it.

It depends on what he is interested in, and what he wants to do afterwards.

If he wants to do one of the very mathematical courses (Warwick, Cambridge, UCL, SE and Imperial) he should take a gap year. These probably offer as good a springboard as anywhere if he wanted to go on to a quant or forecasting job, or research, and will be quite different in content to places like Durham or Oxford.

He then needs to apply to four of these with a fifth "safe" choice. (With his grades he should get a pretty automatic offer from places like Bristol.) The acceptance rates are such that each University will be rejecting very strong candidates.

Gap years can be brilliant experiences, help provide some separation between school and University, and mean that you start with some useful extra maturity. If he is interested in IB picking up a language would be valuable. It is extremely international and firms value people who can be flexible on location.

But speak to the admissions offices first.

Bristol is a very good option and has good career outcomes including lots in finance if that is what he is targeting. Its very good for the social side as well.

If he applies again it will be on basis of actual grades achieved rather than predicted so firstly I would see what he gets. The trouble is predicted grades are often raised by one grade and I think they are counted equal to achieved grades so if he does go down from 3 A stars it would add to risk. So would wait for results before a final decision.

Of the E&M students DD knows all had Bristol or Bath as their insurance and all got rejected by the LSE (about 40 she knew/questioned). Though in her year there was no TMUA for LSE and I think the issue is for LSE you have to declare if you are sitting TSA so they know you are applying to Oxford. The LSE used to rely heavily on personal statement and wanted a strong commitment to a maths based course and LSE I would guess so by having a different course they don't like it. How much difference TMUA would make I don't know, I would not put Oxford or any non very maths heavy course in if targeting LSE. I have heard of people getting Cambridge and LSE offers and those are both heavy maths based courses so similar. Basically stick to similar courses.

If your DSs school is a big sixth form or very good at admissions worth asking them success rates to give an idea of your odds. With Economics you get all A star students with strong super curriculars and many with FM who get rejected from very competitive courses with no obvious reason for rejections other than volume of applications the courses get. In some cases will be entry test scores and if he can improve those a lot that would definitely help.

Look up the offer rate for courses - he seems to be targeting 4 out of 5 both times that have low offer rates. That's risky. What DD did was just apply to Oxford and Bristol first then waited for Oxford result before adding more. Otherwise I would do more than 1 safe choice.

Gap years can be great but work experience at the moment its not the easiest climate and have a look where the opportunities are. I think best ones maybe London based which is very challenging if you aren't commutable to London due to accommodation costs. If they already have a job it maybe could continue that, that is what DD would have done as we aren't commutable. Around here there are opportunities still but not directly linked to finance, see what its like in your area unless there's a way can live in London. Abroad is worth considering and languages are useful but if you haven't got a good base in a language already not sure what chance there is you will pick one up.

If he gets 3 A stars I think he would get Bristol offer again, below 3 A stars its less certain. Some people do get in to Oxford second time round, maybe a few each year, but several I have heard of had offers first time applied, grades went down (I would assume special circumstances here), they retook or added got a second offer and got in. Though this is only from online forums so can't be 100% certain. Its a difficult one, I know DD in the same boat, would have wanted to try again, and I think a gap year could have been good, but its high risk as to whether it results into the most competitive options. People I know at Bristol are very happy though do a lot of partying every night. I would not be concerned for career options from Bristol though if he wants something very specialist you might stand slightly more chance from LSE or Imperial and being in London may help for London based jobs a bit. Many economics / finance jobs are London based and personally I would prefer to go elsewhere so you experience different places but its personal preference. Once you have the first job and experience places are a lot more concerned with your experience and rarely ask exact content of degree. Same with A levels nobody asks once you have a degree. Either option could work, its just thinking everything through.

Good points made by @OneZanyCat above.

The standard offer for Bristol Economics is ‘only’ A star AA. Is that DS’ offer, OP?

As a former admissions tutor in a very high tariff (STEM) School, I agree there is a tendency to view predicted and achieved grades equally, even though about 80% of PGs are wrong with most optimistic. (Some optimism is called for but it has become a bit ridiculous)

DS could easily be admitted to Bristol now with excellent grades short of three A stars. If he is, he will be at a disadvantage applying next year against a new cohort blithely (over) predicted solid A stars, which they will not need to achieve.

At minimum, I don’t think he should withdraw from Bristol unless and until he gets three A stars. In addition to positive views from the admissions tutors as discussed.

@OneZanyCat thanks so much. He mainly wants to go to London because of the reputation of the univeristies, better job opportuniteis, net working and also he likes the idea of living in London, I think. @poetryandwine -thank you for pointing out that he will be competing with his actual grades, we need to remember this too. We have emailed the admission teams of the target univerisities and also contacted his school for some advice. Overall, firming the Bristol offer now and then after getting his actual grades (fingers crossed) , if he still feels strongly about taking a gap year, then we will have to decide accordingly I guess. If he was to take a gap year, any recommendations for good online or in person tutor/college options please? We are in Hampshire and he can commute to London if need be. Thanks

@poetryandwine and yes, the Bristol offer is for A*,A A..

I was sorry to have to write that, OP. As long as hope triumphs over experience with admissions tutors, the over prediction problem will persist.

The main site for TMUA prep is at UAT UK. I hope they have past papers. These are incredibly important -for practice, for extrapolation, etc, but it is equally important not to get into a mode of memorising ir thinking that the old problems per se are preparing you. Learning new ways of thinking is what’s preparing you. Also, it is important to give the problems an independent go before looking at the model answers. Many, perhaps most, highly able students have never had to struggle and they find it very difficult to do so. Better to learn now than in the midst of a demanding degree programme (or to flail at university because you can’t cope with the very idea - many do).

The AMSP site used to have a lot of support for TMUA. However it may have been migrated to mei.org when HMG reallocated funding a little while back.

Perhaps other MumsNetters can recommend good professional tutors for TMUA. But another option would be to try advertising for a student with good teaching or tutoring references at the London universities or Southampton. Really, it could be a someone with good tutoring skills and very strong personal maths ability at any level; UGs in Maths, Economics, etc from some of the London universities will have recently cleared the TMUA hurdle themselves. MSc students will have more mathematical maturity. Six of one, half dozen of the other. (Funded PhD students will be too busy, and in STEM or Economics I don’t recommend the others for this)

The online forum The Student Room has a good advertising service for tutors. DS could join and might find something there. Or, he could post the need for a tutor as a question targeted to different degree programmes (by name). Obviously he needs to make his family’s involvement with the process very clear.

But he can develop a wonderful professional life from Bristol, if he makes good use of what’s on offer. Very best wishes to him.

Back when I was applying, I took a gap year and taught myself A-level statistics and Economics (I had FM) I don’t know what difference it made but I got an offer from LSE second time round.

Agree with the advice of waiting until after results day

DD and I kept on having the debate around predicted vs achieved grades - she was adamant that they are treated exactly the same whereas logic told me that admissions tutors would be able to understand the statistics as well as there being the admin advantage of an applicant being an able to accept an unconditional offer.

She had 3 A stars in humanities (so relatively rarer than in STEM) and all the admissions people we spoke to in person, were like, oh yeah of course we prefer those as achieved grades, derr. While official stuff online is more ambivalent. I think that it's worth looking at what the most actual grades of those on the course are. So, for instance, you can see very detailed stats for Cambridge which show that the majority of those on humanities courses have one or two, rather than three (or four!), A stars. She got an offer from a really competitive course with OK-ish written work and an OK-ish personal statement - I think an applicant on a gap year with excellent grades just feels like a slam dunk. Plus she was a year older and could concentrate on preparing for interview while working in a bar.

But echoing previous posters, keep an open mind until mid August. DD had four options (retake, clearing, go to the place/course she'd applied to in y13 and gap year) and we'd prepared for them all (honestly had no clue how she'd do).

You need to check very carefully with the Economics departments of the universities that your DS might wish to apply to next cycle with FM as an extra A-level as to whether they would discriminate against him on that basis. LSE Economics is extraordinarily competitive, the TMUA was brutal this year and is likely to be even more so next year since, inevitably, more students are going to prep intensively and extensively for it and tutors are getting more practiced.

Bristol is a great university for Economics and I think I would be wary of turning a Bristol offer down for an attempt at LSE or UCL next year.

Hi, @Valleyofthedollymix Three A stars in hand is a special case. Generally, at least outside of the most elite programmes, applicants with three A stars are snapped up. As you say, this is so rare in the Humanities that I would expect most of the elite programmes to grab these applicants also, if the other application criteria are satisfied. However we get sad anecdotes on this Board of applicants with four A stars in hand gathering rejections, particularly in Economics and Maths.

In disciplines where A stars are awarded more liberally, presenting anything short of a perfect record leaves room for the admissions tutors in elite programmes to hope they can attract someone better. They probably can’t, of course. If they really thought they could, they would simplify their job by increasing their offer. (Two A stars is still superb, of course, and I don’t mean to sound overly discouraging about A star AA outside of the super elite programmes.)

I really dislike the growing trend of making offers in tiers or tranches - the first tranche to the top applicants; then, depending how many Firm the programme, tutors decide how low to go for the next round of offers, etc. The poor applicants who applied in good faith because their PGs meet the entry requirements exactly (and there are no admissions tests or similar) may never get an offer, or know why. Yet programmes won’t raise their offers for fear this will be offputting.

Do people with four A stars in hand really get rejected? I can see from, say Cambridge, for maths/economics or for courses with additional admissions tests where maybe they didn't do well, but what more can applicant do? Except be an international and pay more...

But yes, different for humanities courses. That said, they didn't bite her hand off with offers! Warwick was quick, Bristol moderately fast and she was waiting on Edinburgh and LSE when she got Cambridge offer (so got in with rejecting them first).

And economics does seem insanely competitive. When I was young, it was seen as a slightly dodgy social science. Why do all these young people want to study it? Because they want to work in 'quant or IB' and make a tonne of money?

Yes they doget rejected, certainly from Oxbridge and from the glam Economics programmes.

I think Economics sounds reasonably interesting, intrinsically. But yes, IB and
££££££££££ is the big draw. My understanding is that for most, even from the top programmes, the compensation levels of which they dream will prove elusive. It seems rather sad if there isn’t much else in it for you.

Yes @Valleyofthedollymix, @poetryandwine is right, 4 x A with almost perfect TSA scores get rejected. I actually know someone with As predicted in Maths, FM, STEM and Econ who got in the top % on the TSA, got through to interview but got rejected. Then tried the next year - grades in hands (bearing in mind 4 x A* and high TSA) - rejected again. Admittedly from an indie so not sure if that was seen as 'different' but very smart person.

So, yes, 4 x A* applicants absolutely do get rejected. This was for Econ & Management at Oxford where they don't even need FM!

@poetryandwine
I am sure you know this but just to highlight inter-subject comparability data shows that based on the same GCSE results, students perform better in humanities than science subjects. Subjects like English Literature, English Language, History, Politics, Sociology and Geography are relatively easier than all the science subjects and maths based on the same GCSE results. More able students tend to do STEM subjects but research shows they are graded more severely. There are also more applications for STEM subjects at university, which is why it is more competitive. More A* grades are awarded in STEM subjects than humanities overall but this is only because more students do them, particularly maths.

DD was at a state school but they also warned all the students about the risk of 3 or 4 A stars including Maths and often FM being rejected everywhere for Economics, Computer Science and Medicine and said they had quite a few cases where this had happened and there was no obvious reason other than volume of people applying. All the ones we have heard about have been boys and its mainly people who list the top 5 as their choices with no safe option.

With E&M at Oxford it was 18 to 1 and there were lots of 4 A stars rejected pre interview - this will be a combination of GCSE score plus TSA score but some will still be very high in both. Each university has their own way of doing things, at Oxford as its so common to be predicted 3 A stars the A levels don't really count for much as long as you are predicted or have at least 3 A stars. You can see on UCAS historical entry grades on the course and most common is 3 A stars or more, same for LSE. So if you have a child who is at private or grammar its highly likely you need that as a minimum.

It has become more popular over the years - I never knew it was a dodgy social science, always found it well respected, and even in my day a lot of people were after banking jobs or macroeconomist jobs though quite a few ended up in accountancy. Its often people who at GCSE love maths but as they go into A levels want maths but with a subject context (countries, politics, history, human behaviour) and its also seen by some as a route to high earnings and a solid degree for finance as it combines maths and writing skills. With the E&M at Oxford its the management part which attracts lots of international candidates and most on that course are aiming for finance.

Through our children we know masses of people who did Economics degrees and tbh the salaries are pretty incredible 8-10 years out so I think the competition is understandable.