Gap year to take Further Maths for Economics university applications?

[Itsmedpr]

Hi
My DS is currently sitting his A-levels and has recently decided he’d like to study Economics at university. His subjects are Maths, Economics, and Computer Science, with predicted grades of 3 A*s.
As he doesn’t take Further Maths, he didn’t apply to LSE this cycle, as we understood the chances there can be quite limited without it. He’s now considering taking a gap year to study Further Maths and prepare more thoroughly for the TMUA, with the aim of improving his chances at universities such as LSE, Imperial, UCL, Warwick, etc. (His recent TMUA score was unexpectedly low).
Would this generally be considered a sensible route. Any advice or experiences would be really appreciated. Thanks

I think he has to accept Bristol by 2 June or it gets withdrawn (though 14 days to get it reinstated). I would accept Bristol for now then consider after A level results assuming that doesn't make you liable for any costs. I'm not sure at what point you become liable for fees or when they do their accommodation, check that out.

I would not pay for help with getting into Oxbridge - DD did TSA by herself and it was only about 2 weeks preparation though it seemed a test some people could do and some people did not get. I am not sure if those GCSEs (not sure how many are As are how many are A stars) would be an issue from a private or not but its worth looking into for Oxford. E&M goes down from 18 per place to 3 per place based on GCSEs and TSA so a lot are wiped out at that stage. DD thought she got 46 out of 50 on TSA and guessed last 4 and she was about average for TSA score that got an offer and state non-contextual for that test. You don't get results but a converted score so its hard to be certain but the results are high. The ones at her college for E&M from private are all from the big London private schools (think she is the only state in all 3 years) and the ones she knows have all 9s from the privates but it may be her college.

https://www.keble.ox.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/E-and-M-Feedback-2024-Department.pdf shows shortlisted E&M applicants had an average of 8.8 GCSEs at grades 8, 9 or A star. So for private would expect you would need at least that. DD had 12 and from an underperforming comp and that helped, the boost for a comp didn't make much difference as the 12 8s and 9s put her ahead anyway. They also look at results in context of the school. So although their formula doesn't differentiate between 8s and 9s when you get to interview they can see exactly what you got and for private it may be they differentiate. Cambridge interview 7 per place and have about 10 per place apply. I would have thought he could definitely get an interview there, assuming reasonable TMUA score and FM. Oxford if he didn't get through to interview this year it might be GCSEs and numbers applying make it almost impossible. LSE is about as hard as Oxford and Cambridge to get a place and does their own admissions system, they have now added TMUA, in DDs year it was personal statement. They are often very slow to reply and some time out. Some 4 A stars achieved from private in DDs year on here were rejected instantly by LSE Economics though no TMUA that year. Those all got Oxbridge offers but its insanely competitive and many excellent students fully capable of doing the courses get rejected for very minor reasons due to volumes applying. DD says they should offer more E&M places and said they are supposed to teach business and have lots of people suitably qualified applying who are willing to pay £40,000 a year who they turn down and as a business they should expand and take the money. Though don't think its the academics who get to decide place numbers. LSE do give a reason in their letters but its a bit like when an estate agent gives reasons for people not buying your house when often it was just they ranked another candidate higher and were overwhelmed with applications. Though if its GCSE score that's a tough one as not much can do about it. DD got due to other people being more competitive. Some get due to personal statement.

Yes, DS will need to accept Bristol now to hold his place. It is expected that a few will withdraw for various reasons before term begins, or request a gap year. (You must then withdraw in order to apply elsewhere). Bristol will be able to cope.

I agree with @OneZanyCat ’s analysis and with @TravisWritingCoach that the decision should not be driven by the goal of LSE.

However if you can find a good tutor I think private tutoring is helpful for some. I don’t know much about finding a good tutor. Perhaps a university placement advisor could help with some of these questions?

It maybe worth asking at his school if they get a lot into Oxbridge / through TMUA or asking other students. DD had a group of people she used to do things with online / phone and a lot of those where boys from the London private schools and they did things like the maths comps together (team and discussing answers after for individual) and I think they also discuss university applications - some I think are via The Student Room and shift to phone but if he's at a top public school already there should be well informed students / parents / teachers there. It maybe one who got through TMUA well could help. Though I do think teaching yourself also helps with interviews as well as you have to think alone on your feet.

I would also ask the school (assuming its a big private) what their success rate is with these courses and typical grades if known of those who get in from there. DD got this from her state sixth form and it was dire for LSE Economics (1 out of 60), PPE at Oxford had 6 a year in or so, Economics at Cambridge and Oxford combined 1 or 2 a year. These will be 3 or 4 A star students and they are quite different to the average success rates especially LSE and they had no idea why for LSE they just said don't bother applying (though they also said that for Oxford E&M and she got a place). They did target Oxbridge which may have been a factor indirectly. If you ask the Economics teacher if they are still around they may have an idea of likelihood from his school.

If he does get through to interview stage at Oxford or Cambridge its very important to appear teachable. In the interview they will challenge your views or at least offer different perspectives and its important to reflect on that and adjust your answer rather than say I am right in my original view consistently. I've seen several boys who on paper should have got Oxbridge offers scoring well in every category go down on the interview and I would guess its because of this. I can understand why they do this trying to show how clever they are but it gives the impression you won't learn from others. It can be quite disconcerting as a technique in an interview though if you aren't expecting it as if you aren't confident when they offer a different perspective you may think I got that wrong but generally there is no right and wrong (unless maths), its finding out how you think. Its worth pre warning them that views are likely to be questioned to see if they can learn from it. If they don't know just have a go or ask them for clarification / more detail and don't worry about getting things wrong. If you get something wrong then work it out it shows you can learn together as well.

Is there any reason why he didn't do FM in his sixth form? Presuming that it is offered if he's at a private school. I would have thought that was the most likely reason why he got rejected - that the top places for economics want people who are super mathsy.

Won't be the lack of FM A level at Oxford, 4th A levels are not counted unless exactly equal candidates and DD was told FM no advantage. Around 40%-50% of those who get in for E&M including DD don't have FM. Interview maths was A level standard and DD thought anyone with A level maths would get it right. TSA doesn't require maths A levels. Finance component has the hardest maths within the E&M course and Economics part DD has found A level maths alone fine.

Not sure about the others. Warwick has on its website for Economics that FM is treated as any other A level, not required with no special status and fourth A levels not counted though it is a mathsy course which implies it wasn't the reason there either, maybe TMUA score but don't know a lot about Warwick admissions.

Warwick - Economics - Subject Combinations

• We are looking for students with strong mathematical ability and A-level Mathematics or equivalent is therefore required for this programme.
• Further Maths and Economics are not essential, although they are accepted subject choices for a student considering Economics at degree level. We treat them as any other strong A level subject: they have no special status.
• We will only look at your top three grades (including Mathematics). A fourth A Level will not be considered.

Bristol, Bath and Oxford DD had offers with no FM. LSE FM does make a difference (5% vs 9% acceptance rate) and they ask why not and some will be able to say school didn't offer. You would need to check each university whether it makes a difference. The people on here from independent with 4 A stars achieved who got rejected very quickly by LSE both had FM and DDs state school have had lots rejected with 4 A stars including FM. So it helps at LSE but its still low odds. I think for a very maths based course where vast majority have like Cambridge or LSE you are better to have it as some drop Economics due to maths.

Economics and Management at Oxford is probably THE most competitive course to get on to. So applicants have to be pretty stellar to get an offer.

@user1494050295 Sorry quoted the wrong post so ignore me

Wow, they're actually in parts really good stats for getting kids into Oxbridge from your DD's state school! Our high performing indie only get 5 into Oxbridge every year and they have usually a handful of all 9s students and multiple A* students...

Its a huge sixth form taking the almost all of best state students from whole of one county and high entry standards like 4 x 8s in maths and 3 sciences to be allowed to study FM. Think about 3% get Oxbridge offers. LSE is so dire I wonder if they black listed them. 😂

@OctaviaLemon It is indeed the most competitive! They only interview 18%. 5% offer rate. Delaying FM to third year isn’t likely to impress when they turn away stellar applicants.

DD was at a state school but they also warned all the students about the risk of 3 or 4 A stars including Maths and often FM being rejected everywhere for Economics, Computer Science and Medicine

Most medicine universities rank by UCAT scores once you have minimum predicted grades at A level (often A not Astar) and maybe GCSEs, but UCAT is vital. I imagine other subjects are similar with LNAT and TMUA.

Bristol economics is 80% A levels and 20% GCSEs. Where they cannot differentiate, they use the PS and explain what evidence they want to see. Not everywhere has other tests. Bristol and a few others deliver high class degrees and engaged students will do well in terms of jobs.

But where they do use additional tests these are generally very important for admissions. It is not about whether extra tests result in better degrees. It is just about how universities deal with admissions especially when faced with numerous candidates predicted 3 A stars, and when predicted grades are not particularly accurate and are often overly optimistic (perpetuated by universities assessing applicants on predicted grades). In reality choosing at random from those with a minimum spec is likely to produce just as many good graduates (after all Bristol should be bringing something to the table themselves!)

Bath, Nottingham and Durham don’t use extra tests, UCL and Warwick do plus I imagine lse and Oxbridge - but I haven’t checked. So strategic applications are maybe a good idea. Obviously if a uni wants a test, they consider it and say so. I would think thst the maths test requirement points to maths being a strong feature of the degree. Whether that’s better or not is open to interpretation. Some unis consider resits, and others don’t. Ditto all exams in one sitting rules. It’s important to read everything and there’s top unis with no extra test.

Think it's TMUA test is used by Cambridge, LSE, Imperial, UCL, Warwick it's preferable and Oxford has TARA (was TSA). Think interviews used by Cambridge, Oxford, Imperial. Though always double check as they can change each year.

@OneZanyCat Yes, the COWI universities. Not sure imperial offers economics but UCL does use a test a for economics. Most students would not apply just to testing unis for economics and of course this should be checked.

The Imperial course is fairly new and is a bit different to straight Economics but has people applying for it who are applying for Economics elsewhere.
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/study/courses/undergraduate/economics-finance-data-science/

There seems to be an increase in universities requiring tests now - DD was 2024 start and then LSE did not require TMUA and don't think UCL did. I think the numbers applying for the top courses meant they've had to add further tests to screen and it also makes people consider how much maths there is rather than just list LSE etc as its prestigious. The first TMUA sitting (one you need if you apply to Oxbridge) is quite early in the year in October. https://esat-tmua.ac.uk/about-the-tests/tmua-test/

The Imperial course is fairly new and very competitive. We know a dc on it and companies are lining up to offer the students spring weeks and internships. They haven’t graduated yet but are almost 100% likely to be offered a high paying job at the end.

Yes, UCL started using TMUA from this year onwards, Warwick said it is not essential but guess advantantageous if achieved a good score.
DS took both TSA and TMUA in October sitting this year, a week between both tests. May be taking just the one next time with adequate preparation may help.

Did either of your DC study economics?

Yes some Universities don't require additional test, but economics is a broad subject and for some you need to be at ease with quite complex maths. These are the Universities that seem to be testing. (COWI + LSE).

In terms of strategic applications there are two approaches. DS' school advised that competition was such that nothing was certain, though they felt he should be aiming for one of the more demanding courses. They suggested applying for all of them with a gap year and reapplication as a fall back. Obviously some wont want a gap year so applications need to be broader. One of DS' peers got nothing first time round but Cambridge on reapplication.

It was a decade ago, but DS was applying with five A Levels including both Economics and FM. He was still rejected by Warwick, Cambridge and UCL but had a last minute acceptance from LSE (and went on to take 2 Masters degrees and a PhD, so was clearly capable.)

If you can take four, FM as a fourth is advisable. It will not be that much extra work if you are a gifted mathematician. First because if you reach a ceiling at A level you really don't want to be taking a maths heavy course at University. Second because maths courses will go at a cracking pace. At LSE they covered half the content of an FM paper in a single lecture. Much easier if it is revision rather than new learning.

If your DD studied at Bristol I am sure she would agree that other Universities covered more technical ground, so are at an advantage when it comes to recruitment for technical jobs, and for network building around quantitative financial roles. Not all roles. Its a bit like saying that studying structural engineering carries an advantage over, say, biomedical engineering for some roles, but not all.

@Needmoresleep I can read admissions pages as well as anyone else! Did you read the dc here is not taking all the exams at the same sitting? That could be a deal breaker for an ultra competitive subject. Therefore reading the detail is important and not everyone can be a COWI plus lse student. Plus from what I’ve seen, grads who are very bright and are excellent in many ways from other very good universities do not have to teach or lecture. Even Bristol grads can earn big money! What a surprise!

OPs DS would be taking three exams in the same sitting so in terms of grades they would be meeting that requirement. Taking FM as an extra subject would be about building up the maths knowledge they also look for. How they would consider this none of us can say - OP DS would be well to email LSE direct for advice. They may like it especially if FM wasn’t an option in his current setting. One thing I did note with some maths courses was they don’t like gap years, I presume they feel maths knowledge is lost - do another reason to study FM if taking another year to apply.