Gap year to take Further Maths for Economics university applications?

[Itsmedpr]

Hi
My DS is currently sitting his A-levels and has recently decided he’d like to study Economics at university. His subjects are Maths, Economics, and Computer Science, with predicted grades of 3 A*s.
As he doesn’t take Further Maths, he didn’t apply to LSE this cycle, as we understood the chances there can be quite limited without it. He’s now considering taking a gap year to study Further Maths and prepare more thoroughly for the TMUA, with the aim of improving his chances at universities such as LSE, Imperial, UCL, Warwick, etc. (His recent TMUA score was unexpectedly low).
Would this generally be considered a sensible route. Any advice or experiences would be really appreciated. Thanks

Thank you, @fairyring25 . I did not know this and I suspect it has much to do with your qualifying phrase, ‘based on the sane GCSE result’. Also, TBH our tariff is so high that I have focused on the statistics for grades A star and A.

Maths, FM and Physics have significantly higher percentages of top grades than History and English Literature. This isn’t about the number of candidates. But it doesn’t necessarily contradict your statement. I would be interested to know more, if you have it - thanks again.

@poetryandwine
Have a look at this.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/inter-subject-comparability-in-gcses-and-a-levels-in-summer-2024/inter-subject-comparability-in-gcses-and-a-levels-in-summer-2024-accessible
Here is another article
https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/122201/html/
There are also many articles on the FFT datalab discussing issues with grading severity in the sciences.

Thanks very much, @fairyring25 !

What are his GCSE results, OP?

One of my best further mathematicians, predicted top grades was rejected for Economics from LSE because their GCSE grades weren't great.

Yes, this is definitely true as I have been looking - more anecdotally but wide-ranging - on students from what they did at GCSE then at A-level and results.

Of course, it all makes complete sense: at most schools to do sciences/maths at A-level you need a minimum, often high, grade (say 7 but at some highly selective schools even 9s!).

With A-level grades largely determined on the cohort with a set % given the top grade, it goes without saying that the STEM students are disadvantaged compared with, e.g. Geography or Sociology where often you have a lower entry point to do it at A-level so there is a much more 'normal' bell curve.

TMUA and FM not sure on where best, DD didn't do either but she just used YouTube videos and self taught with Bareau for FSMQ. Warwick has this available:

https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/sci/maths/studywithus/ug/entrance-exams/tmua-support/

@OneZanyCat your posts are great and interesting 🙏
Very up Ds's street. Please could you list the economics degrees you / your dd recommends? Dc aces maths and has special love for humanities so economics appears to be a very good option. He is considering Oxbridge LSE UCL but if you don't mind listing the great unis for economies related subject and perhaps the degrees? Just as a starting point.

@advertismememe Just look at the subject lists in the Complete university guide. It’s a pretty good list. However, don’t apply to the top 5. Make sure at least one is definitely attainable.

Thanks @advertismememe I think the Complete University Guide Economics table gives a good starting point though places vary a little year on year and for places that only offer joint courses like Oxford you also need to look in the relevant other table like Business and Management for E&M. For Oxford they appear in the Economics table to have lumped PPE, Economics and Management and Economics and History together which are quite different courses and PPE has a much bigger intake.

https://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankings/economics
https://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankings/business-and-management-studies

From that I would have a look on the universities websites at course content and have a listen to presentations and think about what he enjoys studying. For example, if you enjoy studying countries and discussing current affairs / looking at policy solutions look out for global options like international development, world economics, politics. The Cambridge Economics degree is very strong on maths and offers quite a few opportunities to study countries and do a dissertation as well. Some other courses will be much more like a maths degree or very data based eg Imperial. Economics and management at Oxford is a bit like managing a business / finance management plus half economics and I think linked to their business school. It's worth having a think about how much of the degree you want to be what, what you find interesting and also considering joint if say you want more humanities in it. Ideally I would stick to the same type if aiming at top 5 or so though below that it's more flexible. Then you have to consider entry tests and also check each year until apply as it can alter.

My DD applied one/two at a time to keep options open until knew results. Can do that up to January deadline. So she waited for Oxford offer then knew ones add next where for insurance. She did Bristol and Bath for those for Economics and got offers from both, Bath lower than Bristol and went for Bath as insurance but it's a risky insurance and was only one grade lower than Oxford offer and you hear of people not taken going one grade down there. What's best will vary by person and their aims and interests. DD is interested in international development and finance / macroeconomics but no interest in a data heavy course, similar to me. I think the Cambridge course is better for that than E&M but she wanted to apply to a different course to me. She loves Oxford so it's worked out fine. I don't know too much about other courses, LSE obviously very well regarded and range of courses. Bath is good for placement, looks quite career focused but I don't know that much. Worth visiting places if have time and DD asked lots of students some via Student Room about universities. There is so much information online these days and great if they do it themselves.

For the reapplication case, I’d make the gap year look intentional: Further Maths plan, TMUA preparation, one economics-related reading/project strand, and work or volunteering if possible. But I’d still ask admissions whether Bristol in hand is stronger than another cycle of uncertainty.

At the moment I would focus on getting through A levels with ideally 3 A stars. If he doesn't get that I would definitely take Bristol and he will be fine there. If he still wants to pursue gap year in this scenario I would try and find chances of keeping Bristol offer first, I don't know what cut off is and presumably with that offer he's at private or grammar.

If he gets 3 A stars then I would have thought he would get another Bristol offer if reapplying though safest to check. If is salaries he's concerned with then I think of those you have talked about reapplying to highest is LSE with £72k after 5 years compared to £60k after 5 years at Bristol on Discover Uni. Obviously with inflation and data lags both should have risen but gives idea of difference. Though need to be careful on how many work in London and how many are from wealthy well connected backgrounds to start with or higher entry A levels. The value add may or may not be the university choice though LSE is a great choice but it's hard to know with top choices how much difference is from what factor and all have good earnings potential. Then it's whether he wants to take the 10 percent chance of an LSE offer with FM.

I would only do that route if the year has another purpose like work experience, that won't help with chances of university offers but will look better on a CV and for graduate jobs and also if it's unsuccessful for universities it will feel like it still had value. Being able to commute to London is great but the market is challenging at the moment. The ones DD knows with finance internships it was 4,000 applications per place and both had previous finance experience in small firms I suspect though don't know possibly via connections. Though might be worth networking to see if he can get anything after the exams are over. Not sure how young people do it these days but in past would have sent CV and covering letter round or used a finance recruitment firm, maybe Linkedin as well, DD also asks other students. Otherwise any job which has relevant skills in. Though I would seriously consider taking Bristol offer anyway but if he absolutely wants to try again I would support that. If he can get TMUA up a lot, which may be worth testing after A levels in summer, before final decision and has 3 A stars he would be in with a reasonable chance though check with admissions and Student Room may have an idea.

@OneZanyCat He is in a private school. He is very adamant that he doesnt want to go to Bristol, but has agreed that we should see what his actual grades are before rejecting the offer. As you say if 3 A*, then it may be worth taking the risk,otherwise, need to reconsider options.

@noblegiraffe his GCSE grades are 9999 AAA 8 8 8 6, the 6 being in English, though he scored an 8 in English literature.
May be the English grade is also a reason for rejection..😥

@OneZanyCat would you recommend any extra tutoring for oxbdrige preparation ? there are so many platforms online that charge a fortune for TSA/ interview preparation, not sure if its worth doing this. Your DD has done so well in securing a place in Oxford, congratulations to her.

Does he have any feelings about what he wants to do beyond university? Bristol is good for connections to companies in engineering, aerospace, defence etc. my friend has a degree in mathematical economics and went into the defence sector doing mathematical modelling.

I hate to say this, but it is possible, given the amount of top grade applicants they have. They have to filter somehow.

Can you contact the admissions dept for feedback?

Oh and if he does choose a gap year, having employment (pt is fine) is a good demonstration that it’s intentional and learning skills - it doesn’t need to be in a sector he wants to work in, just demonstrates that he can work hard, universities and employers like this. My friends grandson works in a local bar, means he’s also got holiday work once at university, quite flexible so he can travel and he’s seen the real world

Thanks so much @poetryandwine x. Very useful.

@Itsmedpr
My DS is also thinking about doing Economics at University. He is in Year 12 at the moment. I have been looking on ChatUniversity to see what predicted grades students have that receive offers from different universities. I have also looked at the whatdotheyknow website to see what predicted grades students have that receive offers. There are many freedom of information requests on there where people have asked to see what predicted grades students have and who received offers. It might be helpful for your son to see what the competition is. Many of the students receiving offers for Economics from the top universities have 4A stars including Further Maths and some students with 4A stars are being rejected. Therefore, I would be cautious about turning down Bristol as there is no guarantee that even with 3 A star grades and doing Further Maths a year later that your son would get an offer at places like LSE, Cambridge, Oxford, UCL etc. However, if he is adamant he doesn't want to go to Bristol then he is unlikely to be happy there.
Your son may be able to improve his TMUA score as he might have been at a disadvantage not studying Further Maths or not doing lots of preparation for it. A lot of the students who do TMUA have all A star grades and do Further Maths so they are competing against other students who are similarly able.

The Warwick website on TMUA revision, linked by @OneZanyCat , looks good. I especially like the discussions of model solutions. That can be much more valuable than just written solutions.

Sadly we do not give feedback. Sometimes the request for such is made with goodwill, but more often it is the prelude to an argument or worse.

I think we are typical in this.

My student was definitely informed that their GCSE results were not up to scratch on rejection, I'm not sure how they got that feedback.

Perhaps others have more stamina than we do.

PS I have no idea how that giphy got embedded in my post!

🤪 I thought for a minute it was a university administrator flipping the Vs at a rejected applicant asking for feedback!