Is it worth switching from independent to state for A level if applying for a highly competitive subject?

[rougheredges]

DS is in yr 10 in an independent school. He’s really happy there- we’re pleased with the academics and he’s got a lovely group of friends. He’s currently predicted grade 8/9 in 9 of his GCSEs (and a 7 in DT which he’s doing because he loves if!) He’s managing this pretty effortlessly.

Currently he’s thinking he’d like to study Economics at one of the tougher universities to get an offer from. He knows he’ll need lots of extra/ super curriculars as well, but his friend’s dad told him today that he might find it harder applying from an independent school. Apparently there’s less wiggle room and the bar is higher.

I’ve looked online and there’s a lot of conflicting information. Most of what’s out there seems to refer to contextual offers which isn’t relevant. I’ve read that it does matter/ it doesn’t matter/ they take where you did GCSEs into account so it’s too late/ they prioritise state schools/ it’s all about grades and PS.

I fear the answer may lie somewhere in the middle of all that but is there anyone who could give more guidance? His current school are keen to keep him (he’s currently an academic scholar with a princely 5% bursary!) so I’m not convinced they’d give unbiased advice.

(Local state school is great. He’d have gone there but it’s C of E and we didn’t qualify being disorganised atheists who figured it out too late. They remove the church attendance requirement at A level.)

Does anyone have any info?

There are people on here who are experts in this field, so I won’t comment except to say that while contextual offers are definitely a thing, going to state school in itself does not give you an advantage. And neither do extra curriculars. Super curriculars might.

He should start doing the UKMT and preparing for TMUA.
Personally, I would switch but mainly to save money (I'm assuming from the fact that you're considering it that there's no safety issues etc). I'm not sure if it would be an advantage, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be a disadvantage.
I believe Cambridge and Oxford have a list of suggested supercurriculars which can be a good starting point

Don't waste energy trying to play the system.
Put your energy into supporting your child to do the best they can do.
Your family is privileged, your DS is high achieving, his options are wide.

Current family experience of attending 6 different UK Uni's here. This has shown us that Uni's are predominantly still saturated with a far higher percentage of students who were privately educated. This is even higher at Oxbridge.

Out of interest what do you mean by safety issues?

Honestly, I think getting into these tougher unis/courses is a matter of good luck to some extent.

So instead think where he will be happiest / achieve best / and balance against cost.

If you think grades will be the same, and he will be happy, then save your money and move.

If you think grades will be noticeably different then if you can afford it stay where you are.

Care needs to be taken not to fall into 'this particular school/college/subject/uni will be the definitive turnkey to success'. In reality, a person's motivation, self-awareness, adaptability and developing skill set are far more important determinants. Some educational settings or family situations can hinder and widening participation schemes for that disadvantaged minority are designed to address that.

Your son's situation is different; he will simply be competing with a large number of other students also from well resourced, middle class backgrounds and the broad private v state angle will not impact that. Better that they spend time developing good study skills and application because A levels and competitive entry unis are all a step up.

In Y10, my children were getting involved in voluntary roles outside school which helped them understand more about themselves, gain new skills and helped them secure paid jobs which, in turn, helped them decide their next steps. A focus on understanding one's self can be helpful at this stage as it can make for better decisions down the line rather than a potentially mechanistic 'if I study X at Y I will be successful'.

My children went to the sixth form at their school. There was a real benefit to having continuity of teachers, setting and friends. Some students benefit from a change, others do not have a choice, but that also is something to bear in mind. A levels are a tough 18 month sprint, with lots going on in parallel.

If you’re thinking Oxbridge, private schools are still massively over represented in the student body. Something like 30% of Oxbridge students come from private schools, from only 7% of the general population.

There have been steps taken to tip the balance slightly towards state school students, which some have interpreted as making it harder to get in from a private school. But if it has done anything it has made it a bit harder for private school students to get in to Oxbridge compared to previously but not compared to state schools. There is still a massive advantage to going to a private school.

@rougheredges Oversubscribed universities that are conscious about maintaining a balanced intake know that parents try to game the system, so they look at where students do GCSEs, not just A levels.

E.g. Oxford: https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/applying-to-oxford/decisions/contextual-data which considers the following:
"Your attainment at GCSE compared to GCSE attainment at your school or college....
... The percentage of students eligible for free school meals at your school or college at GCSE or equivalent level."

My son remained at his independent school for sixth form. He has a contextual offer at an RG uni (not for economics).

Several of his friends at the same school applied for economics and other very competitive courses at various unis and all have good offers. Others left the school and went to the very good local sixth form college and have equally good offers.

So in our very very limited experience, remaining at our independent school vs attending the local state college hasn’t made any noticeable difference to uni offers.

There are some big disadvantages to changing schools at 16. Having to make new friendships and navigate a new system is hard on a kid. Those factors are probably bigger than any advantage of being a state applicant.

oxbridge dont just classify kids as private or state. They can distinguish “widening participation” which is kids who have genuinely succeeded against the odds from the “posh state & grammar schools that have the advantage of private without the fees”. So being in the latter group won’t help much.

I agree with this.

Economics is very competitive to get into, especially single honours, especially particular universities. His focus should be on getting the best possible A-level grades (he doesn't need Economics A-level to study Economics, although I always think it's a good idea to "try before you buy"). A change of school at 16 requires some settling in and regrouping. If there's no "pull" factor it could be best to stick with the environment he's familiar with.

Although at A level it’s more like 18% of candidates attending a private school as a much higher proportion of private school students continue to A levels vs the general population, so the gap is narrower than often quoted.

Another question - what do you know about the UCAS support at the two schools? Who does it? I have experience of this in independent and state and the sheer volume in state means it is harder to support less organised/motivated students and the focus is (rightly) on those from less well served backgrounds who e.g. don't have a parent who's been to university, The system has changed a lot so up to date information is crucial.

National A-level results data[29] suggests that 12.2 per cent of all A-Level entries for 16-18-year-olds in 2021/22 were from independent schools.[30]

Im never sure where the very high proportions of sixth formers in private school quoted come from. This isnt to say they are wrong just that when I look they seem lower. The figures above are lower (& for A levels alone). One would expect for all level 3 qualificatons (including those taking BTEC routes etc.) they would be lower still. They are a bit old - so maybe there has been changes since.

You do not access an easier route in to university by switching from private to state for sixth form. Contextual offers are a broad approach to trying to address the fact that it is much more difficult to get a top grade in some schools than in others. Only a minority of state schools qualify for this affirmative action and the difference is such that a pupil who would be on track for ABB in a well-resourced fully-staffed independent school would be quite likely to drop down to BBC at the under-resourced more-challenging-context school. Moving to the more-challenging-context school in the hopes of getting an easier offer is a bad idea because contextual offers tend to be only one grade-drop so an ABB offer would just drop to BBB but the more-challenging-context for those 2 years of study coukd easily drop the grades by 2 steps not 1 leaving the applicant in a worse position. It's far better to stay where he's happy, if you can afford it, and use all his energy to maximise his achievements. Universities do not reject able and hardworking applicants just because they studied at an independent school. The universities know full well that some of the brightest and best will be at private schools - especially if they got there by a scholarship. Your DS is unlikely to be significantly affected by the efforts the universities make to identify equally bright youngsters who haven't had your DS's opportunities and they won't be impressed or affected by any attempt your DS makes to portray himself as less privileged than he is, but he will not be disadvantaged by that privilege and will still get a good range of reasonable offers. The people who trumpet about using this strategy "successfully" can never prove that they wouldn't have got the place without the shenanigans. Admissions Officers are not stupid.

Some unis do have policies of taking from lower achieving schools - I’m not sure of the term - but I’m sure these students still need to reach the requirements of the degree course or they’ll drop out. It def applies to my DS’s uni (a good Russell group), but he went to a regular state school (not deprived) and there also many privately educated students there too (and many internationals).
I wouldn’t move him if he has friends etc, just support him in his choices and application.

30% of oxbridge offers are made to people from independent schools but that's basically what you'd expect with no bias. The 7% figure is across all 14 yeargroups from reception to upper sixth but it's around 15-18% if you just look at 6th form.

Among that 15-18%, about 50% of grades earned are A or A* but among the remainder of pupils, only 22% of grades awarded at at this standard so if you are selecting from the pool of candidates who are on track for 3 A-Levels at grade A or better, you would expect around 30-36% of those to be at independent schools.

The much bigger disadvantage that doesn't get talked about is that the overwhelming majority of the state-school candidates who get oxbridge offers are from highly selective state schools - generally selective by family wealth due to having catchment areas that you have to be very wealthy to live in, or grammars selective at 11+ that generally require expensive tuition or the expensive luxury of a SAHP to get a kid through. The vast majority of ordinary kids haveno access to such schools and attend schools that very rarely produce a candidate who has anywhere near Oxbridge potential.

Which unis and others can advise. Make sure he does further maths for starters.
Also if Oxbridge, it’s basically a lottery. Don’t make shy promises. Make sure you put a good back up. I assume you are thinking Oxbridge, LSE, Warwick etc so put a more achievable aspiration too.
Also look at the courses. They are not created equally. My DS is a Bath. Very maths and computer programme heavy. Meanwhile at Loughborough you don’t even need maths to get in so the maths aspect is taught as you go.

Hi, OP -

There is so much good advice above that I hesitate to single a few bits out. As a former admissions tutor in a very competitive STEM School, I will add to the consensus.

Sometimes a child needs a fresh start, as in cases of bullying, etc. Sometimes finances or life situations dictate the choice. Reasonably robust DC can generally cope, which isn’t to say that it is easy.

Otherwise I would encourage your DS to focus on where he is likely to find the most academic and personal support together with opportunities for super curricular development. A good friendship group counts for a lot. Being a Scholar, which a referee from this school will highlight, doesn’t hurt although it is unlikely to be a significant factor in admissions decisions.

All noncontextual applicants are on a level playing field. Top programmes want the best possible students, full stop.

Programmes in which students from independent schools are overrepresented are doing more outreach to state schools in the hope of gaining more applicants there.

Perhaps this is what the friend’s DF was thinking of or perhaps he just likes to play the angles. In any case, your DC and his own are best served by ignoring his calculations and forging ahead on the paths that support them best.

Best wishes to DS

No point in switching as gcses still from private school. He won’t get a contextual offer at a state school. If he can manage further maths that will increase chances of being offered a place at a top ranked uni for economics.

Do universities really discriminate against children based on whether their education was tax payer funded or not? I’m not doubting you OP especially given the way the country is, but it sounds ridiculous and quite worrying.
As others have pointed out, moving schools can be disruptive and could affect grades. An easier way, is just to do as people applying for public sector jobs do; research the identity quota that year and simply identify as it in application forms.

Has he looked outside the U.K. for comparable subjects?

No they don't discriminate.
But they do make allowances if someone went to a poorly performing stare school v an independent Oxbridge factory. Which is fair imo.

No, they don't.

They do try to attract more applicants from poorer backgrounds and areas and schools with lower than average rates of application to university.

At the end of the day, a strong set of grades and applying to courses where you're likely to achieve the offer, are the most important thing (along with picking a course you'll enjoy or benefit from of course).

Allowances? Ah gotcha 😉