Is it worth switching from independent to state for A level if applying for a highly competitive subject?

[rougheredges]

DS is in yr 10 in an independent school. He’s really happy there- we’re pleased with the academics and he’s got a lovely group of friends. He’s currently predicted grade 8/9 in 9 of his GCSEs (and a 7 in DT which he’s doing because he loves if!) He’s managing this pretty effortlessly.

Currently he’s thinking he’d like to study Economics at one of the tougher universities to get an offer from. He knows he’ll need lots of extra/ super curriculars as well, but his friend’s dad told him today that he might find it harder applying from an independent school. Apparently there’s less wiggle room and the bar is higher.

I’ve looked online and there’s a lot of conflicting information. Most of what’s out there seems to refer to contextual offers which isn’t relevant. I’ve read that it does matter/ it doesn’t matter/ they take where you did GCSEs into account so it’s too late/ they prioritise state schools/ it’s all about grades and PS.

I fear the answer may lie somewhere in the middle of all that but is there anyone who could give more guidance? His current school are keen to keep him (he’s currently an academic scholar with a princely 5% bursary!) so I’m not convinced they’d give unbiased advice.

(Local state school is great. He’d have gone there but it’s C of E and we didn’t qualify being disorganised atheists who figured it out too late. They remove the church attendance requirement at A level.)

Does anyone have any info?

„d) in some cases an A from <insert poorly performing school> could be seen as a greater achievement than an A-star from <insert superselective grammar or private school>“

You see that „be seen“ is s problem. An A star is always better than an A. They are competing nationally for the same exams.

I understand that two candidates with A Stars each - contextualisation can be applied. For example, „a relative of mine their school didn’t offer further maths so they taught themselves the syllabus with no teaching input and got an A star. Got 5x A stars inc „EPQ at A level.“ That is a prime example of a high achiever who has shown complete self motivation.

But if some kids are getting in with lower grades that doesn’t help them or the unis either. Because once there they are going to have to compete with everyone else with the straight A stars for their degree class! So only if they were genuinely capable of an A Star all along and their dad died or whatever a week before their A levels, they are going to be starting disadvantaged compared to everyone else. And they aren’t competing nationally for their degree class, they are competing against their peers. And if they get a 2:2 they will not get a job very easily. Would have been better to go somewhere else and get a 2:1.

The idea is that these kids are perfectly capable of A stars, but their living or educational situation has meant they haven’t had the same opportunities and support as the kids from the private or outstanding state schools. Once they are at university with the same environment and the same educational opportunities then they will thrive and get that 2.1 or a first.

So much of the misunderstanding of contextual offers seems to come down to the belief that the kids at private schools or high achieving state schools are just innately better than the kids living in deprivation. It’s pretty horrific really.

I had lower A level grades than nearly everyone in my year at law school at an elite university... They all talked down to me when we first started because I didnt have the public school background and a gap year story.

I came top of my year every single year. By some margin.

Your faux concern about how we will cope at university just reveals your prejudices

@TestTickle - so have you made it to KC or partner in a law firm now?

If you are a lawyer, you will know that unis are accepting 30000 odd law students and there aren’t the training contract places afterwards. You will know there are only 160k odd solicitors holding practising certificates. You will then deduce that maybe channeling everyone into law at that point with no jobs later on is not actually that great?

One of the issues is that it is competition for places that has driven up the grades needed to get into certain courses, not that it is academically necessary. That is what the LEAPS scheme is based on. Its not that they will let in people who then won't be able to manage, it is just that they recognise the advantage that people from private schools and educated backgrounds have.

If they can achieve what is needed without all those benefits then they deserve a different entry system.

So playing the system by getting all the benefits of a private education and then the 'benefit' of going to a state school is morally wrong.

There is some old research that looked at degree grades of students who started with the same A level grades. The ex state school pupils did better than the ex privately educated pupils.

The key is in the word “old” research.
Look my kids aren’t at private school so I do not care either way.
But I can tell you that the key for disadvantaged kids is the job opportunities later on, not what uni they go to. Unless they want to be academics.
So contextualising needs to work with the professions otherwise it backfires.
In law, whilst there are so many state school students, the profession itself including at entry level is still not reflecting that!

Do you think that is because the state school students are less capable or because the private school old boys network is still in play here?

I have made partner in a niche and highly sought field, yes.

I can't see what relevance that has to places in top university course? Surely they should go to the top students (and surely you can understand that it is reasonable for universities to recognise context when assessing what a top student is).

This is a good point. It looks like his friends may all be moving but there is something to be said for continuity.

He works hard. He could work harder but so far he’s not needed to which worries me a bit as he’s not developing the study skills he’ll need.

He wants to do maths, FM, Economics and politics at A level. He’s very clear on this so we can at least start prepping him for these. His school offers additional maths at GCSE to top set to prepare them for A level do I think that will also help.

Surely arguing that these children should be held to a better academic standard is suggesting that they are innately better, not those arguing an equal one.

Based on what?

my kids state school is entirely non selective. It’s not in an especially wealthy area either. It’s just a good school with a wide mix of abilities.

They have eight with oxbridge places this year. There are also plenty of kids that leave with fewer than 5 GCSEs though.

Frankly I wouldn’t stress about university. It’s the jobs market you need to worry about. Anecdotally know several ex
private school Oxbridge graduates struggling to find work 🙈.

Dds state sixth form is majority former private school kids - largely as parents wonder what they are paying for - state has small classes /good teachers /the more disruptive kids have gone due to high entry requirements / all but the super sporty fade that out due to school work and Saturday jobs etc.

Thank you to all those who shared links and material and experiences as well. It’s been informative. I’m very aware DS is privileged and I do support contextual offers. What I needed was to understand if his privilege is counting against him and whether I should attempt to
mitigate, but I’m pretty clear now it won’t.

“Do you think that is because the state school students are less capable or because the private school old boys network is still in play here?”

@Ufsse - I do not know. A lot of the top law firms are trying. Law at undergrad currently has loads of girls as a percentage and also a high proportion of ethnic minority. The jobs aka training contracts offered should really be reflecting the uni intake overall, which they are still not currently.
Then again, being a partner in a top law firm working 14 hour days has never been the easiest on women with children. Same goes for getting to consultant level in medicine.
Sorry I know this is a tangent now. But ultimately, girls do extremely well academically - even if unis are contextualising, unless the top jobs further down the line positively accommodate for women what exactly is the point in it all.

2014 research, so not ancient....

@rougheredges - he sounds like a high achiever and aiming for the right A level subjects anyway. He will need to work out if he prefers more PPE style (Oxford) versus more Maths heavy (Cambridge). Both Politics and Econ require a lot of real life knowledge and application and the Maths/FM is very hard work at A level. DD has a lot of friends doing these subjects at grammar - mostly boys as well - most are also doing an EPQ related to Econ/Politics overlap, stuff like looking at eg facets of immigration, particular public policies of the past aimed at improving economic growth. So I would start thinking about something that interests him there as well.

Sorry the thread got derailed OP. I suspect your son’s friend’s dad holds the same fairly entrenched opinions as demonstrated by some on this thread.
Your son sounds settled and happy at his school, it’s the best place for him. Ignore the scaremongering.

“I have made partner in a niche and highly sought field, yes.
I can't see what relevance that has to places in top university course? Surely they should go to the top students (and surely you can understand that it is reasonable for universities to recognise context when assessing what a top student is).”

@TestTickle - it is relevant because I am wondering what you are doing personally to improve social mobility in your own law firm.

Yes and why wouldn’t we? The key here is ‘started with the same A level grades’ . Understand?

Wrong. Lowering grade requirements for young people studying for A levels in difficult circumstances recognises that, for example, it is harder to study if you are helping care for a disabled parent in a poorly heated house than it is if you have one healthy parent and household income is above the national average. Note that the starting point is high grades, with the contextual offer lower, not the contextual offer is the starting point. Another offensive notion from you: that academic ability is linked to social class.

If only there was an easier way to avoid being bored by posts. I reckon you’re hanging around looking for an opportunity to report any posts that you disagree with rather than joining in.

@Jeantheoldbean - so you are state educated yourself?

Fact is, law and banking are still full of privately educated kids, regardless of what the unis do or do not do. So what exactly is the solution and how does it even matter what the unis do?
Because since they went all contextualising the top law firms and banks also introduced all their own weird psychometric stuff since they stopped relying on Oxbridge as a brand.
So what exactly is anyone doing to help these contextualised kids out properly in the long run? Because ultimately it is the salary earned that matters for most, not the degree or where it was taken. That is just money spent to get the salary eventually. And I know some academics might find this offensive, but that is the reality for most prospective students!

You're welcome. I wish him the best! If nothing else, the current affairs situation is the gift that goes on giving for economics (along with geography, politics, history, psychology, sociology...)

Another offensive notion from you: that academic ability is linked to social class.

Can you remind me which one of us is arguing for different A level result entry criteria based on social class.