Yet another university pulling Modern Languages degrees

[tadjennyp]

Just seen on the news that Leicester is pulling its MFL degrees despite students having accepted offers. Are languages becoming the preserve of prestigious universities with very high tariffs? What hope do students in sixth forms in schools with low prior attainment have of going to university to study a language? I am feeling quite demoralised as an MFL teacher. What can we do to prevent the decline? And no, google translate does not do the same job as a person being able to converse with confidence.

But honestly, the rot set in when the Labour government ditched the requirement to take MFL at GCSE in 2004. This was entirely predictable and Brexit has just added an additional layer of pain.

I think it is worth noting for what a short time it actually was compulsory to take an MFL GCSE. It became compulsory in 1996 and was dropped in 2004, basically because it had become clear how badly those now being required rather than choosing to do it were doing. In 1980 about half of students did a languages O-level, which is about the same as took one for GCSE in 2016. I don't think the decline in students wanting to study MFL at university can all be put at the door of that 2004 decision.

Bristol’s another one to consider…

But it must have contributed to the down turn in kids taking languages at GCSE, A-Level, undergrad level, training to become languages teachers, actually becoming language teachers, continuing in academia and teaching at universities etc etc. It’s an ever downwards spiral- and now more and more universities are closing languages departments, I’m not sure what the way back is. It’s tragic. And yes, I know that the departmental closures are part of the wider attack on Arts and Humanities over the last 15 years or so.

That’s really interesting that languages were only compulsory from 1996. I had no idea. It would be interesting to see the stats around languages take up at GCSE/O-Level, A-Level and degree level over a longer period.

@3WildOnes that's a strong list of unis so clearly your DC is very bright.

I've not got any direct intel about any of those unis closing (or not) their MFL depts but I would be surprised if any such prestigious destinations did so. I've heard nothing from various MFL contacts but obvs that's only relevant for the next year or so.

Of those you list, Exeter is the one I would be least keen on, for no other reason than that the others are all at the top of any list. Have they also considered Bristol - similar area to Exeter but bigger city?

Thank you so much for your reply. The thinking behind Exeter was that in the last couple of years they have accepted grade drops so would be good as an insurance, just incase it all went wrong on the day!

I love Bristol as a city and think it woukd be a great place to study but have heard horrors of accommodations costs there. But maybe I should add back on to my list of universities to visit.

I agree it has contributed, but I think probably less than people think. 45% of students take a languages GCSE; 3% take a languages A-level (and that number is so small that the number taking an A-level in a language that is their first or heritage language isn't a negligible proportion of it). It doesn't seem to me that this suggests that making the 55% who didn't choose to do a language for GCSE take one would be likely to boost the A-level numbers much.

Yes Bristol is £££ for halls and shared houses. So is Durham tho I think; not sure about Exeter.

If accomm cost is a concern, how about a northern red brick like Leeds?

DC is fairly quiet and reserved. I thought Leeds might be too big and too far from us in London. Durham obviously further but much smallerso maybe easier to navigate socially. I'm not sure on the best universities for quieter types who aren't going to be going out drinking of clubbing?

Labour taking away the requirement in 2004 was the start of the end, I agree, though not the knockout punch. Not everyone did well, but it helped bolster infrastructure within schools.

Once you narrow the pipeline at 14 the dominoes start falling. Tuition fees and rising living costs and then Brexit were all just further blows.

I think the way IB does it is better. At IB you must do a language but there are different levels (A for fluent/native speakers, B for second language, ab initio for starting a new one from scratch and then standard or higher for A & B). So you can peg the level and intensity of study to your needs. A-Level doesn't offer that. You have to want to focus on a language.

I also think studying an MFL alongside another subject can be a really great combination and universities should facilitate this more. Not just the usual joint honours, something less intense than that.

It's not for everyone @3WildOnes but you could always add an application via CAO to the Irish system (TCD, UCD for starters), if he's a high achiever (and your financial circumstances allow it) and run it in parallel to the UCAS process. You lose access to UK Student Finance but the tuition is 3K EUR per year (2K EUR for 3 of the 4 years for my DD due to Irish Government rebates), she is finishing her UG studies this May 26, that included Spanish and Arabic. She starts work after receiving a Returner's offer as a consulting associate for a Big 4. Many of her cohort have also secured a variety of offers and had a mix of internships, placements, Laidlaw scholarships etc along the way.

Accommodation is an issue, but not unsurmountable and still no where near as expensive as say, London. The Y4 cost is £7k for on-campus, but Y1 is a dice roll for sure.

They require a foreign language at GCSE, and depending on degree course, 1 or 2 MFL in the A level mix which then convert into points. If you can add a 4th A level, AS level, EPQ or Further/Core Maths (extra points), even better. The entry threshold is high for UK students to compete against Leaving Certificate points accrual, but at least they still value MFL studies, and the YA is totally funded through Erasmus. This includes at non-EU universities that falls under Partner university funding, with the exception of USA. Lots of JH options, if combining STEM and language is attractive as an example.

It also has its downsides, but if you have an independent YP not requiring huge hand-holding as it's not that environment, then it's possibly another option. And humanities alongside STEM students do not get looked down upon in the same way as here (her anecdotal opinion) - they are all a bright bunch, quite respectful of each other.

Ah, just read he's quiet and reserved.

You definitely need to be prepared to step out of one's comfort zone to study in Dublin!

I worry that this terrible trend will start to spread to other traditional arts subjects. Will English Lit or History be next? It’s really worrying.

DD1 did a JH degree in MFL (specialising in Spanish) and comparative English.
Its set her up so well. The skills of doing a MFL degree doesn’t start and stop with learning the language verbatim.
it’s about culture and context.
the same could be said of her English part of her degree.
she learnt skills that are so transferable and has the skill of language (she’s since learnt two others) that I’m so envious of.
It’s actually quite a broad curriculum, DD studied politics, film, society and history as part of hers.
it really can be an all encompassing degree

Yes, It would be a big step out of comfort zone! Though DC has surprised us by going on two foreign exchanges and loving them. We also have family in Dublin and Cork so would have that comfort.

Will think about it! Thank you.

Already happening...

Brexit and the movement of people absolutely did contribute to the decline of MFL provision. Lots of MFL teachers are not UK nationals.

Sorry, just realised that wasn't a Brexit related conversation!

York seems to rank quite highly on most league tables for MFL. So that could be one to consider for insurance, esp for a dc not wanting a big city. I don’t know much about the specifics of the course though - we’re hoping to visit on an open day to find out more.

I guess it depends on what your DC thinks. Would he like to go to Leeds?

I suggested Bristol as you have two London unis listed so figure a big city would be fine. But if you live there that’s different I guess.

I know a YP who moved for uni from London to a large town /small city type place and found it a culture shock tbh. But maybe your DC is not fussed about London’s cultural offer. My ds is at uni in a v small place and hasn’t had an issue afaik.

I might suggest Lancaster as a supportive place but it’s also far from London and frankly its MFL offer looks wobbly to me.

@clary do you have any intel about the York MFL course?

I thought the buoyant languages unis were Lancaster (maybe not then!), Warwick, Birmingham, Swansea and York (although their provision is a bit different). Bath offer a very specific language course , although I have no idea how successful in recruiting it is. Normally I'd say Newcastle and Sheffield but I have heard rumblings.

Portsmouth and OBU , outside the RG , and UCLAN are still clinging on - UCLAN mainly because it offers Asian languages, I suspect.

There are lots of factors at play. But looking at the 1980 figures could be deceptive. At that time the less able students sat CSEs and the more able students sat O Levels. So if you’re looking at the O level % you’re only looking at the brighter cohort. I think the decline in brighter students doing MFL - those who are quite capable of doing well - is the most striking fact and is reflected in the acceptance rates at Oxbridge. My DC’s schools also have 100% success rates in applications for MFL at Oxbridge.

The A level has changed significantly since my day as the analysis of the literature/film is done in the foreign language so is inevitably a much lower level of analysis for most students unless they are native speakers. In my day all the literature essays were written in English and were of the same standard and complexity as English literature A level essays. That’s quite a big shift - and it’s the literature that is studied on MFL courses at unis like Oxbridge. I would say this shift to all the assessed work being in the MFL favours native speakers and deters others.

On the other hand I really don’t think MFL GCSEs are difficult for a child who is exam savvy. You can rote learn 20 or so higher level phrases and crowbar them in and then it’s about attention to detail. My DCs with no particular aptitude and awful accents got comfortable 9s, taking it a year early. Their school teaches Spanish GCSE in a year as an additional option for those who’ve done French. A level is a different matter.

The ending of AS levels has also led to a lot of schools focussing students on only 3 A levels and has probably also reduced numbers as some might have taken language as their 4th as something a bit different. It’s probably a bit chicken and egg but if fewer students take MFL, the school probably won’t put a lot of resources into them and then bright students (who could possibly study anything) won’t take them.

Finally, there’s been a very big push in STEM and there are now several specialist maths/science 6th forms, some sponsored by universities and some by individuals, which encourages STEM further. Have any universities sponsored specialist language 6th forms to encourage uptake?

And finally (finally!), it’s much more possible now to spend a year abroad as part of any university degree. So while this is an attractive part of an MFL degree - and develops great, employer-friendly skills - you can do it while studying sciences, so it isn’t an USP for doing an MFL degree.

They have not stopped language teaching that's a complete myth. What they've stopped is making all 16 year olds take a language gcse. Turns out actually loads of them didn't want to do it.

Also the other issue is that I think statistics suggest language degrees don't stand you in great stead when it comes to getting a well paid job, and fundamentally now university is so expensive people want to study a subject that has good job prospects.

All of this is spot on.

And also, I knew I wasn't imagining writing my lit essays in English ! But I am Scottish educated so thought it was just me. We didn't do films - 3 texts (all written) and a historical topic. For whatever reason, I can now talk about the Saarland to any passing French person (in English) .

Learning languages is great and all but do you really need a degree in it? Like what's the advantage beyond doing it for A-level. If you really like it why not do an employable degree and take additional language classes that your university offers?