Yet another university pulling Modern Languages degrees

[tadjennyp]

Just seen on the news that Leicester is pulling its MFL degrees despite students having accepted offers. Are languages becoming the preserve of prestigious universities with very high tariffs? What hope do students in sixth forms in schools with low prior attainment have of going to university to study a language? I am feeling quite demoralised as an MFL teacher. What can we do to prevent the decline? And no, google translate does not do the same job as a person being able to converse with confidence.

However you teach MFL, you cannot get away from vocab and grammar! It will always matter but the overall course content and relevance matter too.

It's very well established that learning lists of vocabulary with no context is ineffective. Vocabulary needs to be learned in context.

Was that a description of some software your DC's school uses, MiniGC?

That sounds like e-learning (aka the pits of hell, but I digress).

Similar to my DC's school's GCSE Maths software, Sparks. A bottomless pit of going back to the beginning. An 'educational' version of doomscrolling that sucks the life and energy of anyone.

It was software that they had to use for homework. “Bottomless pit of going back to the beginning “ is exactly right.

I would just like to give a bit of support for educational software used appropriately & flexibly.

DD's weekly homework for french is to learn a vocabulary set for a weekly test. She is in Year 9 and they are making their way through the GCSE topics they are currently studying. At the moment it seems to be something about celebrity & popular culture. They can use 'language nut' to learn the words (there are reading, listening writing and speaking exercises in the package), but they dont have to as long as they are getting reasonable marks in the vocab tests. DD finds the speaking useless - it just doesnt recognise anything. However, she finds the other exercises useful in building up her vocab knowledge. Maybe decontextualised lists aren't the best, but having some vocab knowledge is a start when working on a topic. Class work doesn't use software and is much more interactive. It covers grammar and the language in action. They are also asked to prep for core tasks at home. These tasks draw on the classwork and vocab learning. A recent one was writing a 90 word piece about their views on a famous celebrity. Knowing the vocab on its own wouldn't lead to success, but it certainly helps.
Similarly sparks is used for maths homework. It just seems to be automatically generated questions on the topics they are studying with some mixed blocks that provide a useful refresh of earlier topics. DD doesn't love it, but it isn't a big deal either. She gets that practice consolidates her maths skills. The level of questions isn't always perfect, but it is mainly okay. Her school isn't 'zero tolerance' so missing a question you are stuck on isn't a big deal. Students can speak to teachers if they are stuck before the hand in. However, unless you are consistently completing a low proportion there will be no consequences. She prefers maths genie for independent exam revision, but as far as weekly homework goes sparks is tolerable.

@Owlbookend Educational software in MFL might potentially help students with homework/passing the test but speaking a language is first and foremost a motor skill and educational software is particularly useless at teaching motor skills.

All of it should be leaned in context - people would be far better off studying in the target country or using online realia /utterly outdated to be sitting in a classroom with a teacher.

@Ceramiq as i said it is rubbish for speaking, but for reading, writing & listening they can be a useful support for some students as part of a wider educational offering. As one homework activity to consolidate some key vocab I think it's okay. Im not sure how you would practice listening at home without software.
I think my posts illustrate that I don't think education should all be about passing exams/grades. However, it is one consideration. As far as DD is concerned language nut is helping consolidate some vocab for GCSE reading, listening and writing tasks. It's just one tool and students dont have to use it if they prefer other strategies. Sometimes things aren't about what is ideal, but rather what is possible with the resources available.

A language is first and foremost oral and spoken between people - it's a physical, embodied experience. It's very easy to practice listening at home with films and series, which are way more effective than software. The issue with ed tech in language learning is that it might help students pass exams in the short term but it doesn't teach embodied language.

@Ceramiq I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't think it is easy or efficient to practice listening from films and series when you are in the very early stages of language learning (unless you are exposed to a significant amount of emersion). At that stage, it is most efficient to have curated and selected material. It is helpful to have some basics to build on when you watch TV etc. Yes emersion works, but it really isn't possible for most GCSE students studying 5 lessons a fortnight + homework/revision. You have to be pragmatic.
It is easy to be dismissive about passing exams, but for most young people it is the gateway to the next steps along the road. I know two people in my circle who were 'taught to pass' GCSE exams in MFL - rote learning of vocab and grammar was part of that. It was in the days before ed tech, but it was the same process just without automation. They went on to a levels, degrees and living and working abroad for extended periods. The first step to these opportunities was passing at GCSE level.

@Owlbookend Yes, we shall disagree! The standard of MFL in England has plummeted and the reason for that is the mostly terrible teaching (not blaming teachers so much as curricula and resources). Learning MFL is not difficult! We all learn our mother-tongue. Even quite low IQ people can speak several languages if the conditions are right whereas maths or physics or history are beyond them.

@HappilyFreeNow And how do you do that when at school? Are you saying only the rich who can go abroad to learn a MFL should? How does that work? Plus how does that necessarily add to academic rigour at degree level? It’s obviously impossible to facilitate unless you have family abroad or can pay. Plus MFL degrees are 4 years. This would presumably add at least a year and then how do dc access the degrees? Would they have A levels or just be native speakers? Would they be prepared for a degree course or should we just close them down because academic learning isn’t valued in your eyes? Seems a very narrow position to take.

If the standard of MFL has plummeted, Im not really sure when the golden age of language teaching in England was. Im not far off 50 and mine and DD's experience has been fairly similar in terms of teaching style and GCSE level expected. In my parent generation (born 40s/50s) MFLs to O level or CSE were taken by a minority.

In my family everyone spoke languages. One of my aunts, born in 1943, who went to a grammar school, spoke fluent French and German on leaving school (she didn't go to university) and still does and has learnt Greek, Italian and Spanish in her life. Another aunt, born in 1932, spoke excellent French (also didn't go to university) and later Spanish and Arabic. And absolutely everyone in that generation of my family and the next learnt French at the very least.

@Ceramiq it is lovely that there are so many talented linguists in your family and that they had great opportunities. However, I think that their experiences might not have been the typical of their generation.

I've been an MFL teacher for 30 years. Teaching style has changed considerably in my experience. The main problem with attaining a decent level of language at school is that the amount of language exposure and practice per week is not remotely sufficient. A couple of hours a week in a class of 30 kids just isn't really a sensible way to learn a language, however good the teaching is.

It doesn't help that many or most kids in the UK virtually never see or hear a word of the foreign language outside of school, unlike their European counterparts, who are constantly exposed to English.

I had some lessons in the RoSLA block when I was at secondary. There have always been very diverse educational experiences

I agree that limited exposure outside the classroom impacts learning, but it isn't an easy issue to address.

@Owlbookend I possibly am your parents generation and at my grammar we all took a MFL O level. Some took 2. It wasn’t optional. Not sure about cse at the secondary modern. How anyone could be fluent after A levels back then is a mystery to me. Unless they spent time with relatives abroad or were in a dual language home. Or both. The exposure to French Assistants and vocab simply wasn’t there and there wasn’t hours of teaching either.
I therefore agree that exposure to English in other countries is a huge help. We barely had a tv and where would we go to be exposed to French? No such thing as videos and DVDs!

When I went to a grammar school in 1977 we were all prepared to go on a French exchange the following year - 2 weeks each way - and this went on until O-level.

@Ceramiq Well we didn’t. Rural grammar and parents didn’t have the money.

I had a brilliant French teacher back in the 80s who spoke French throughout the lesson. It really got you in the headspace. She wasn't French, she was English, and must have been pretty talented I guess to speak at our level of understanding.

@SwirlyGates My DD had that. Yes ours spoke French but my head didn’t respond!

Tbf that should pretty much be the aim for any decent MFL teacher. Except when explaining grammar points etc.

Hardly any exchanges happen any more. Now we would be expected to DBS check every family and that isn't happening. So no, students don't get the immersion that they need. Setting vocabulary learning homework at least means they can't get AI to do it for them.