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Is Trinity Hall Cambridge right about elite schools?

1000 replies

mids2019 · 07/01/2026 20:19

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2026/jan/07/cambridge-college-elite-private-schools-student-recruitment

Interesting position but maybe there are those at Cambridge that think encouraging students from the state sector has gone too far? Wonder if other colleges will follow suit.

Cambridge college to target elite private schools for student recruitment

Exclusive: Trinity Hall’s new policy described as a ‘slap in the face’ for state-educated students

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2026/jan/07/cambridge-college-elite-private-schools-student-recruitment

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12
januarybikethief · 08/01/2026 16:16

Owlbookend · 08/01/2026 15:41

Like I said above I genuinely believe there are state school students who write well. There really is no need to offer places to state school students that cant use sentences appropriately or structure an essay. If grades alone cant identify good writers then additional selection procedures are needed. If you arent getting state applicant applying with these skills then you need to look at how to attract them. They exist.

There are some, but often those who have a natural talent for it. Competent is not the same as really good. (There are plenty of punctuation and stylistic errors in your post, for example.) In comparison to the primary curriculum, secondary schools don’t teach or particularly value writing skills; and even English and other essay subjects have removed writing ability from the marking scheme at GCSE and A-level in favour of “content” objectives instead. Students who really write well are few and far between, and they are not particularly rewarded for doing so in the curriculum or exam mark schemes.

State school teachers do not have the time to spend 30-60 mins on each essay marking up writing errors; plus it’s generally felt that a page full of red pen upsets students and puts them off, so teachers deliberately don’t mark up for grammar and writing a lot of the time. As a result, the big emphasis on SPAG at primary often just disappears again at secondary. It’s very very dependent on individual schools and teachers to pick up that omission.

BlearyEyes2 · 08/01/2026 16:17

newornotnew · 08/01/2026 16:15

Discrimination, give over. Universities have never given identical offers to all candidates. They give unconditional offers to some and not others, they waive subject/formal study requirements for some, they accept lower actual grades for some, they factor in life experience for some.

Universities make varied (including contextual) offers because they understand that grades are influenced by many factors and are not the only way to measure ability.

Yes, discrimination -the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of ethnicity, age, sex, or disability.

Before you continue to Google Search

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&hs=0dSU&sca_esv=727911a362dc4a92&hl=en-gb&q=unjust&si=AL3DRZGftPMu5S1DRQlTjs_j9BL7RpC5A3JNi2ubrNrqHaHEVgeICH1_CS-kOy52G31j5sO3mwkSQ1XfGhhd9OC7pbdLUCc_Zw%3D%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiJ7ejQq_yRAxXkWUEAHcgIIVEQyecJegQIGxAQ

Dgll · 08/01/2026 16:21

TheaBrandt1 · 08/01/2026 15:21

Ironically Trinity Hall is the college that runs an outreach programme for state schools in our area. Dd and a few others went to a stay there. Not sure why they are bothering with that then!

Funnily enough Dd came back saying no way would she want to go there!

Hearing about all this hothousing and pressure on young children makes me feel quite sad. I hope they get a childhood amongst all this manoervering.

Because they want the cleverest from all walks of life. Not just private schools and not just state schools.

Some children do really thrive on pressure. Oxbridge don't want students who can't cope with academic pressure because it wouldn't be the right environment for them. They wouldn't be happy and they would struggle.

deathbyprocrastination · 08/01/2026 16:24

BlearyEyes2 · 08/01/2026 16:06

Lowering the entry grades as a contextual offer is a form of discrimination. A person who made the requirements missing out on an opportunity to someone who didn’t but had free school meals or has a protected characteristic deemed worthy by the guardian has been discriminated against. As the saying goes, everyone is tired of this left wing nonsense.

I wasn't actually talking about lowering entry grades (round these parts most state school students are not offered contextual offers from Oxbridge unless they are from a small selection of 'aspiring schools' but that's a separate point). I simply meant that it is only reasonable to expect some differences in written output from two students who have had wildly different educations up to that point and that that should be considered when reviewing applications because these universities are looking for potential rather than who has received the best coaching =in the early years of their life. But anyway, you lost me a 'left wing nonsense'.

OhDear111 · 08/01/2026 16:28

@Araminta1003 Many academic subjects lead to a career in law, including music, MFLs and classics.

I suspect Cambridge is finding some students are just not aligned with Cambridge and I did have a chuckle about a Csmbridge music degree and many dc playing instruments! That’s hardly the only criteria for selection. It’s very difficult for state pupils to engage fully with music and few take the A level. At Oxbridge, music is academic and I can see why this college seeks to change course for these subjects.

Newgirls · 08/01/2026 16:28

Wow. What do current students at this college think? What a way to upset students who have worked hard to get there.

It sounds like out of date professors trying to justify their dated courses and teaching methods.

private school kids apply to Oxbridge in droves. If they aren’t applying to your course it’s because it has lost its appeal in today’s world

Owlbookend · 08/01/2026 16:29

@januarybikethief Im quickly typing casual posts on the internet on my phone. It is sloppy and there are loads of typos! Please dont judge my writing based on a few text posts. You have no idea how I write in a professional context.

Also much as I would like to be, Im not a super high attaining state school representative. There is definitely better than me out there.

knowthescore · 08/01/2026 16:30

TheNightingalesStarling · 08/01/2026 08:09

My DDs school doesn't actually offer Music as a subject now at any age. No instrument lessons, no orchestra. It does have a choir and extremely good drama department.

Money unfortunately. It chose its vocational subjects (like Construction) which has 50 pupils per year in KS4 over Music which only had 7 or 8) or Dance which had 4 or 5 per year.

Latin they do offer in partnership with the local Private school... they can send 15 pupils each year for Geology Latin or Economics as an additional subject. (One of the ways the Private school likes to appear the be a charity...)

Realistically most of the top pupils will be at Private schools

This breaks my heart. Even those pupils who don't go on to work as musicians can benefit from a lifelong fulfilling hobby. All of the members of the competing ensembles I mentioned earlier are doing so as an unpaid hobby. The minority who are professional musicians by day are dwarfed, even at elite level, by dedicated amateurs.

newornotnew · 08/01/2026 16:31

BlearyEyes2 · 08/01/2026 16:17

Yes, discrimination -the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of ethnicity, age, sex, or disability.

You consider it unjust, but the universities and government disagree with you.

Owlbookend · 08/01/2026 16:37

@januarybikethief Even though you think im a crap writer (only joking 🙂), I'd agree mark schemes develop formulaic writing. They dont value creativity & individuality. However, this applies to students in all sectors. There are state school students out there though who are gifted writers (& much better than me).

newornotnew · 08/01/2026 16:38

deathbyprocrastination · 08/01/2026 16:24

I wasn't actually talking about lowering entry grades (round these parts most state school students are not offered contextual offers from Oxbridge unless they are from a small selection of 'aspiring schools' but that's a separate point). I simply meant that it is only reasonable to expect some differences in written output from two students who have had wildly different educations up to that point and that that should be considered when reviewing applications because these universities are looking for potential rather than who has received the best coaching =in the early years of their life. But anyway, you lost me a 'left wing nonsense'.

Yes the key thing is it is about potential.

It would be foolish to take too simplistic an approach (grades only) as the risk is limited places get wasted on tutored/supported students with lower potential rather than offered to untutored/unsupported students who have greater potential.

Owlbookend · 08/01/2026 16:39

There are also plenty of great writers in the independent sector. They arent mutually exclusive.

HewasH2O · 08/01/2026 16:41

Oxford doesn't make contextual offers. Everyone has to get AAA to study history, MFL, classics, PPE etc whether they went to a failing comp or WinCol.

OhDear111 · 08/01/2026 16:41

@TheNightingalesStarling Music is not purely vocational. It’s academic at Oxbridge and they are looking for very engaged dc. Yes, awful schools don’t educate academically in the broadest sense but the less academic probably thrive doing construction because I can guarantee they would not have done Music A level instead - or MFLs or Classics for that matter.

januarybikethief · 08/01/2026 16:41

Owlbookend · 08/01/2026 16:37

@januarybikethief Even though you think im a crap writer (only joking 🙂), I'd agree mark schemes develop formulaic writing. They dont value creativity & individuality. However, this applies to students in all sectors. There are state school students out there though who are gifted writers (& much better than me).

Edited

The vast majority of all the written work we get from applicants (state and private) has writing errors in it. We kind of quite like that in some ways, as at least it shows they are not using AI; but decent writing is rarer than you think, and has also declined substantially over the two decades I’ve been interviewing.

Owlbookend · 08/01/2026 16:42

I dont use emojis or start sentences with '&' in professional contexts. I dont think my writing skills would justify a place at Cambridge either.

Owlbookend · 08/01/2026 16:45

@januarybikethief it is sad that writing standards are declining. I genuinely wonder what can be done to boost them. I think phones have impacted on how much kids read. Im.sure that has impact.

TheNightingalesStarling · 08/01/2026 16:50

OhDear111 · 08/01/2026 16:41

@TheNightingalesStarling Music is not purely vocational. It’s academic at Oxbridge and they are looking for very engaged dc. Yes, awful schools don’t educate academically in the broadest sense but the less academic probably thrive doing construction because I can guarantee they would not have done Music A level instead - or MFLs or Classics for that matter.

I meant that the school prioritised spending on its Vocational subjects instead of a full compliment of Arts subjects. They offer Drama, Photography, Fine Art, Architecture and Textiles as "creative" GCSE subjects. But had to recently drop Dance and Music (including in KS3 for Music).

We are in a 11-16 area so A levels are a moot point... the Sixth Form colleges have different specialities.

aCatCalledFawkes · 08/01/2026 16:51

BlearyEyes2 · 08/01/2026 16:17

Yes, discrimination -the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of ethnicity, age, sex, or disability.

What is it you do for a job or do you have children at a uni where they didn't get their top choice because of some "unjust or prejudicial' treatment?
You do realise don't you lots of workplaces also recruit in pretty much the same way that universities give out offers. My work definelty does, were not interested in just your top grades (although they are considered) we want more, a lot more including work experience, your ethos and your work ethic. We are looking for a diverse workforce because that is the best representation of our diverse group of customers.

EBearhug · 08/01/2026 16:51

Araminta1003 · 08/01/2026 10:36

@januarybikethief - we are in London. There are plenty of state schools and grammar schools offering music, languages, Latin. For one DD, I had to pay for Latin as an after school club. All of mine did at least 3 lots of musical instruments to beyond grade 8 standard. There are conservatoires locally galore as well, some have charitable funds to help poorer kids to at least try an instrument. Croydon was running large choirs for state primary kids last term and having the perform in big halls.
The inequality is regional.
There are plenty of selective sixth forms in London that feed into Oxbridge. There needs to be the same quality of selective state sixth forms all around the country and there needs to be a gifted and talented programme for children from early primary who live in regions without access to any of this.
Eton tried to open some in the Midlands/North I think with Star Academy. I think 2 may be going ahead. The Labour Government is as bad as the Tories. They should be working with the private schools and Oxbridge to deliver more of this, not against them.

But you're in London. What about kids in rural catchments, where there's only one choice of secondary on the school bus route? There isn't always the population to be able to give so much choice.

BlearyEyes2 · 08/01/2026 16:57

aCatCalledFawkes · 08/01/2026 16:51

What is it you do for a job or do you have children at a uni where they didn't get their top choice because of some "unjust or prejudicial' treatment?
You do realise don't you lots of workplaces also recruit in pretty much the same way that universities give out offers. My work definelty does, were not interested in just your top grades (although they are considered) we want more, a lot more including work experience, your ethos and your work ethic. We are looking for a diverse workforce because that is the best representation of our diverse group of customers.

Edited

what does any of that have to do with the definition of discrimination? But yes I was aware that employers look at work experience when making a hiring decision.

knowthescore · 08/01/2026 16:58

cantabsupervisor · 08/01/2026 10:38

OK, I'm a Cambridge humanities academic. State school background myself. Have been in the ecosystem here for twenty years. I have lots to say about the 'indy schools are full of tim-nice-but-dims who have been heavily overtutored while sink comprehensives are full of sharp-as-nails poor kids who just need to be given the chance'. Yes, this is definitely true - but it doesn't really impact the Oxbridge scene that much because we spot the over-tutored kids a mile off. A few will be admitted, but not overwhelmingly. Cambridge is not flooded by hundreds of stupid private school children who were only let in because their parents gave large donations to the college. The indy kids who are admitted, are bright kids. The question is just whether there are lots of state schools kids who, given the same training, could do as well.

Lots of people know this I know but some don't, so I shall explain the setup here. The Oxbridge system is built around what are called supervisions (Cambridge) or tutorials (Oxford). Students have one to one (or one to two) meetings with academic supervisors once a week to discuss essays that they have written specifically. These essays are designed to be more than 'informative' - students are being taught to be deliberately argumentative, provocative, interesting. To not just answer the question, but challenge the assumptions of the question. Early on, I get some of my students to write essays that argue something that they themselves don't believe. You get the idea. Now you might say that this only prepares people (men?!) to go into Westminster with its heavily bombastic, rhetorical MO - rather than producing genuinely curious, intelligent graduates who know a lot of 'facts'. In which case, Oxbridge might want to redesign what it's here to do. But I would say it actually does both.

Two observations:

  1. Overall, indy students have always presented as much better at all this - their essays have always been miles more sophisticated from the start. And I mean miles. I have had Westminster, Winchester, St Pauls and Eton (yes - it's now pretty academic there) undergrads who from the very first supervision of Michaelmas in their first year have hit the ground running with extraordinarily creative, detailed, clever arguments. The sort of stuff I wasn't turning out until my third year at best. They have been taught the art of rhetoric, they know how to digest material quickly and effectively and produce something genuinely interesting. They can reference stuff from the classics, the Bible, politics, the arts - stuff that isn't covered in the National Curriculum. Meanwhile my state-educated students, including the grammar ones, have always had a much slower start. In the past, some managed to catch up, some not. Of course, I have also had a whole lot of less-intelligent indy students who just coasted, and some state educated students who were writing essays that were 'fine' early on, but it's true to say that 99% of the time, my very top undergraduates were always from indy schools and 99% of the time, my struggling ones were always from state schools. I know this sounds like hyperbole; it's genuinely not. The top ones are not just 'tutored' - they have been completely immersed in a world of curiosity and intertextuality that doesn't exist in the state sector where a class of 30 needs to be regularly evacuated if one kid is having a meltdown, or even just in a place where there aren't the resources to take the time for this stuff. So even if they get into Cambrdige, they're already turning up at a disadvantage.

  2. Over the last 10/15/20 years, the decline in the standard of undergraduates that come up to Cambridge over that time has been HUGE. I mean, seriously seriously worrying. I now have students turning up who don't really know how to write essays. Some don't write in proper sentences. And this is Cambridge! These students can't structure a simple argument, let alone write a 2500 essay every week that involves reading several books and journal articles, and finding something vaguely 'original' to say. And this is most seen in the state students - so the advantage gap I described above between the indy and the state students who get in is widening.

This is entirely the fault of lack of funding, and the National Curriculum which no longer has very high expectations, which indy schools are able to mitigate, but state schools don't always have the resources to do. It's also the case that many state schools are not even offering some of these subjects or opportunities. Music is a case in point - you are just simply not going to produce so many good musicians if you 1) don't actually offer the subject, but also 2) don't have a chamber orchestra or chapel choir. Nobody expects the Royal College of Music to accept someone who can't play the violin as well but possibly has the 'potential' just because they didn't go to the Yehudi Menuhin School, so why are we expecting Cambridge to do that? Likewise, nobody expects the Arsenal junior team to accept someone who only has the 'potential' over someone who is already showing that potential fulfilled. Kings College Cambridge has had a reputation now for accepting a high percentage of state school students - the upshot now is that nobody (and I mean not one) in the back row of Kings College Choir is actually at Kings College. Because the best singers will be coming from places that nurture the choral tradition, and that can only be in a place with a chapel choir. I think that's a little sad.

I don't think anyone really believes that indy school kids are innately cleverer (aside from the small percentage benefiting from genetic advantage of generations of success). There will be plenty of intelligent state kids who had they been to indy schools, would have turned out to produce even more sophisticated arguments. The problem is that 18 is just too late to start this process. Lady Margaret Hall in Oxford spearheaded a foundation course for students, and now an increasing number of colleges at both institutions are running it. But by this age, a different style, approach, habits have set in, and it's very difficult to reverse and build on. It would simply require extremely intense and expensive 1-to-1 supervision over a long period to bring out the true potential of all the 'brilliant but failed' state kids. Which really isn't the job of Oxbridge colleges - it would be a much cheaper, easier, more effective job if it were done much earlier. I suppose you could make a case that Oxbridge could start an intensive programme for state school students much earlier - but really this stuff needs to be lived and breathed. It can't be a few weekend courses here and there. Most supervisors are academics whose 'real' work is research. So when they supervise undergrads, they want to talk about actual content and ideas, not have to go through their essays finding typos, looking for where they've just used ChatGPT. That's not a good use of academics' time or college's money.

I don't know what the answer is for Oxbridge, but it's not to just let more state school children in and try to 'top them up'. The result of that is 1) the state school kids are failed - they never turn out as bright, and they drop out more than the indy ones; 2) the standards of these institutions just keep dropping, because not only are the standards of graduates lower, but the universities are spending lots of money and resources on trying to bring up the standards of a few by miniscule amounts. The cost/benefits is woeful.

Like I say, I don't know the answer for Oxbridge. But I entirely understand why Trinity Hall has done this, and said it publicly, in a hope to attract some of the sorts of kids I've described above.

The top ones are not just 'tutored' - they have been completely immersed in a world of curiosity and intertextuality

Over the last 10/15/20 years, the decline in the standard of undergraduates that come up to Cambridge over that time has been HUGE. I mean, seriously seriously worrying. I now have students turning up who don't really know how to write essays.

Music is a case in point - you are just simply not going to produce so many good musicians if you 1) don't actually offer the subject, but also 2) don't have a chamber orchestra or chapel choir.

Mumsnet's resident teachers will tell you that they can't deliver all of this because of class sizes, funding cuts, and mainstreaming of kids with quite severe SEN.

I suspect that the dumbing-down of the National Curriculum is also a contributing factor. The bright State kids are bored out of their minds because there's nothing creative, nothing challenging, and little choice of subjects. The devil makes work for idle hands.

We didn't have problems this badly when I was at school.

knowthescore · 08/01/2026 17:07

januarybikethief · 08/01/2026 11:58

Yes. Their education system sends a huge percentage of their children to higher education per se, and the government actively invests in paying big grants to their most academic 18-year-olds to study overseas, with the promise of a guaranteed job in the elite civil service (and conditions attached to it). The high numbers studying at Cambridge are the result of their very specific government education policies, and not evidence of the global super rich paying their way in or whatever. They are also largely concentrated in STEM subjects, with their education system heavily focused on maths and engineering. China, Hong Kong and Malaysia similarly, though with more private money as well as government funding.

NB Cambridge Assessment is an independent exam board. It falls under the aegis of the university’s Syndicate, but it is a completely separate company that has nothing to do with the university in day to day terms.

Edited

If only our govt valued education as highly as Singapore does...

BlearyEyes2 · 08/01/2026 17:07

deathbyprocrastination · 08/01/2026 16:24

I wasn't actually talking about lowering entry grades (round these parts most state school students are not offered contextual offers from Oxbridge unless they are from a small selection of 'aspiring schools' but that's a separate point). I simply meant that it is only reasonable to expect some differences in written output from two students who have had wildly different educations up to that point and that that should be considered when reviewing applications because these universities are looking for potential rather than who has received the best coaching =in the early years of their life. But anyway, you lost me a 'left wing nonsense'.

So you would agree with me that lowering the entry grades as part of a contextual offer based on skin colour or ethnicity for one candidate and not for another based on their skin colour would be a form of discrimination ?

But anyway, you lost me a 'left wing nonsense

Is the guardian not left wing ? Is access to education resources based on identity boxing not a left wing idea? I think the nonsense part speaks for itself

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